Ran across this interesting picture of a stele from Panticapaeum
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/d8/60/f1d8606df2005b64549194aab552553a.jpg
Roy
Some interesting styles combined there in clothing, armament and hair.
Yes, is he holding a bow,or a sica? Is that a bowcase over his right shoulder?
I had not seen ths before and had conceived Bosporan troops as either the Roman auxilia with baggy trousers, or the wild hairy type with square or rhomboid shield from the Kerch tombs. This chap looks a bit different.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on May 15, 2017, 01:48:40 PM
Yes, is he holding a bow,or a sica? Is that a bowcase over his right shoulder?
I had not seen ths before and had conceived Bosporan troops as either the Roman auxilia with baggy trousers, or the wild hairy type with square or rhomboid shield from the Kerch tombs. This chap looks a bit different.
Roy
If he's holding something in his left hand, then his shield is strapped to his arm, which would genuinely surprise me, I wouldn't have thought that this sort of shield was ever 'double grip'
I can see there could be a quiver over his shoulder (perhaps with bow case) and it could be a bow in his right hand.
But that piece of stone against the edge of his shield looks very like a hand holding something??
Roy
Yeah, looks very much like a hand holding a dagger to me.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on May 15, 2017, 04:03:53 PM
Yeah, looks very much like a hand holding a dagger to me.
yes I'd second that, but it does mean that the shield is being held in an unusual way as well
Jim
It does indeed Jim and that might be 'real' or it might be just an artistic thing to show him grasping a sword Or other weapon. Wargamers eould need to believe in some sort of guige , whereas that would not bother a sculptor :-)).
The clothing looks similar to quite a few other stelai from the area - Mielczarek shows some others with the same jacket and tightish trousers, some on foot and some mounted. I think he has a beard though it could be just damage. The hairstyle also isn't too far from others - the 'Parthian' look may be down to being better carved than most. The same combination of clothing, beard and hair can be seen on some stelai with mounted figures.
The shield isn't a shape I've seen on others - oval is more common with some being very large. I'd agree that he seems to be holding something in his left hand - perhaps the hilt of his sheathed sword - but that would mean the shields was on straps.
Very much looks to be holding a bow in the left hand and a slung quiver over the right shoulder, per Roy's first post. Not sure what the weapon in the right hand might be. Very interesting find.
As for the viability of firing a non-recurve shortbow while using a shield that size I cannot attest. We do have examples of shortbowmen firing using a much smaller shild but these are from much further West and centuries later.
Bow, shield and sword; with reference to an earlier discussion, might this solve the conundrum about Mithridates' archers and how and why they stood up to Roman legionaries?
I agree with Tim that he seems to be holding a bow in his left hand, and you can see the lower end of the bow beneath the base of the shield, continuing the curve that reaches down from his hand. The shield could be suspended from the baldric coming down from his right shoulder, though it looks more likely that that is supporting the quiver visible over his shoulder. I'm not sure whether he's supposed to have an arrow or a javelin in his right hand.
Bow, long shield, and either a thonged javelin or a lance appear again in the stele of Gazourios (http://www.kostsyushko.chersonesos.org/1892/images/ris23.jpg) (which is dated to C1 AD in one book I've got, more generally to C1-3 AD elsewhere, matching Staphilos who is dated to C1-2 AD).
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on May 15, 2017, 08:24:16 PM
Bow, shield and sword; with reference to an earlier discussion, might this solve the conundrum about Mithridates' archers and how and why they stood up to Roman legionaries?
I might remind you that a certain person wrote in that discussion:
" The use of the bow is (except for Cretans) basically incompatible with that of the shield. So unless we want a hypothesis whereby a unit of archers followed the swordsmen into the marsh, picking up shields and throwing away bows (in the middle of the Romans who were striking down fugitives left, right and centre) then on the basis of what Plutarch has written we are left with bow-armed swordsmen, whether they resisted or not."
My suspicion is that Staphhilos is a cavalryman, despite the lack of horse in the carving. The shield is the conundrum - the rest of the gear is very much that of riders on a variety of stelai. They are often shown accompanied by a shield bearer or an infantryman - I suspect the former as shown on some stelai from the other side of the Black Sea. Mielczarek does say, however, that there are stelai of infantry with bow but does not show any.
Are we seeing a complete selection of weapons the man was supposed to be able to use but not necessarily all at once?
As for the shape of the shield, it seems that there are examples of a flat ended shield in "Watzinger C. Griechische Grabreliefs aus Südrussland " but I don't have it and cannot find it online.
I just see clothing rather than him holding something... the jacket making a triangle shape with both sides swept back.
It does look like a quiver over his shoulder.
db
Is there any more context?
Is it the sculpture the funerary stele of an individual? Any inscription? Part of a building?
Just wondering...
And just thinking about the logic of the sculpture. If you wanted to strap a shield on to an arm while using a bow, would you strap it to the bow arm or the arrow arm? To strap it to the bow arm as per the sculpture would offer less protection and require a lot more work (5 to 7 kilos on the end of a straightened arm already struggling to hold a bow on target). Or does this just suggest the bow and shield combination was just a transportation arrangement rather than an arrangement for use?
Quote from: Swampster on May 16, 2017, 12:04:22 AM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on May 15, 2017, 08:24:16 PM
Bow, shield and sword; with reference to an earlier discussion, might this solve the conundrum about Mithridates' archers and how and why they stood up to Roman legionaries?
I might remind you that a certain person wrote in that discussion:
" The use of the bow is (except for Cretans) basically incompatible with that of the shield. So unless we want a hypothesis whereby a unit of archers followed the swordsmen into the marsh, picking up shields and throwing away bows (in the middle of the Romans who were striking down fugitives left, right and centre) then on the basis of what Plutarch has written we are left with bow-armed swordsmen, whether they resisted or not."
I think a certain person has added the first sentence of that paragraph to his diet ;): did not the statue/monument discovered near Chaeronea and apparently related to the Roman victory incidentally depict a shielded swordsman with what appeared to be a bow?
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My suspicion is that Staphhilos is a cavalryman, despite the lack of horse in the carving. The shield is the conundrum - the rest of the gear is very much that of riders on a variety of stelai. They are often shown accompanied by a shield bearer or an infantryman - I suspect the former as shown on some stelai from the other side of the Black Sea. Mielczarek does say, however, that there are stelai of infantry with bow but does not show any.
Does his footwear suggest infantry or cavalry (or neither)?
Quote from: Dangun on May 16, 2017, 03:55:40 AM
And just thinking about the logic of the sculpture. If you wanted to strap a shield on to an arm while using a bow, would you strap it to the bow arm or the arrow arm? To strap it to the bow arm as per the sculpture would offer less protection and require a lot more work (5 to 7 kilos on the end of a straightened arm already struggling to hold a bow on target).
if the shield were supported by a strap (perhaps the one over his right shoulder) then maybe the weight would not be on the bow arm. Or he could sling it behind him when using the bow and whip it round if close combat threatened.
Quote from: Swampster on May 16, 2017, 12:04:22 AM
Are we seeing a complete selection of weapons the man was supposed to be able to use but not necessarily all at once?
Seems quite likely to me. After all, the picture isn't showing him in battle, it's representing him as a warrior, and showing him as capable of fighting with both bow and shield + CC weapon would presumably enhance his martial status even if involves showing a panoply unrealistic for actual fighting.
I do have some trouble seeing the left-hand item as a bow, however, due to what looks to me like a pommel above the hand. Or is that just damage to the relief?
Quote from: Dangun on May 16, 2017, 03:55:40 AM
Is there any more context?
Is it the sculpture the funerary stele of an individual? Any inscription? Part of a building?
Google is your friend: https://wiki2.org/en/File:Roman_carving_JPG
The high resolution version through wikimedia commons is a help.
I originally thought he had a bow in his left hand but I'm no longer thinking that. The way the "bow" is rendered is very like the cloth on the right side of his body. The bow cuts sharply off at the bottom of the tunic - it should continue. The upper part of the "bow" is unfortunately damaged but looks proportionately too short. However, I'm more inclined to accept he has a bowcase with bow in it over his right shoulder.
Quote from: Erpingham on May 16, 2017, 10:28:01 AMI originally thought he had a bow in his left hand but I'm no longer thinking that. The way the "bow" is rendered is very like the cloth on the right side of his body. The bow cuts sharply off at the bottom of the tunic - it should continue. The upper part of the "bow" is unfortunately damaged but looks proportionately too short. However, I'm more inclined to accept he has a bowcase with bow in it over his right shoulder.
The bow does continue. It doesn't "cut off" at the end of the tunic so much as at the edge of the shield. Then a short length of it is presumably concealed behind the shield, and you can see the same curved object continuing through, and below, the patch of shadow below the lower end of the shield.
Looking closer at the lines coming down from his right shoudler, I think there may be two shoulder-straps, one broader than the other; perhaps one supports the quiver and the other the shield.
Quote from: Duncan Head on May 16, 2017, 10:38:23 AM
The bow does continue. It doesn't "cut off" at the end of the tunic so much as at the edge of the shield. Then a short length of it is presumably concealed behind the shield, and you can see the same curved object continuing through, and below, the patch of shadow below the lower end of the shield.
I'm not convinced. There seems a clear cut at the end of the tunic and, while I see the continuation under the shield, it would require a dramatic change of level for that to be part of the object in his hand. The scuplture looks more competent than that. That said, the javelin seems to pass behind the hand. Ideally, we need another picture differently lit, so we can see what is real and what a trick of the light.
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Looking closer at the lines coming down from his right shoudler, I think there may be two shoulder-straps, one broader than the other; perhaps one supports the quiver and the other the shield.
Yes, that makes sense, although he is said to be in Scythian dress, which from pictures I've seen has a V neck with wide bands of embroidery just where the baldric comes across. You are, of course, much more
au fait with clothing in the area, so do you think this is an issue in the interpretation?
Quote from: Erpingham on May 16, 2017, 10:56:12 AMwhile I see the continuation under the shield, it would require a dramatic change of level for that to be part of the object in his hand.
I don't see any other likely explanation for the continuation under the shield other than it being the end of the bow. It does seem to me to continue the same curve as the object in his hand, and any impression of discontinuity can be explained by the sculptor's problem with changing depth: he starts the bow by carving it on the figure, but has to finish it lower down on the flat background of the stele.
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Quote
Looking closer at the lines coming down from his right shoudler, I think there may be two shoulder-straps, one broader than the other; perhaps one supports the quiver and the other the shield.
Yes, that makes sense, although he is said to be in Scythian dress, which from pictures I've seen has a V neck with wide bands of embroidery just where the baldric comes across. You are, of course, much more au fait with clothing in the area, so do you think this is an issue in the interpretation?
I suspect "Scythian dress" is just an approximation for "long sleeves and trousers". I can't see any real indication of bands of embroidery; the tunic hem and the sleeves are the commonest places for such, and there's no sign here. And other Bosporan stelae and paintings don't often (ever?) show them.
http://archaicwonder.tumblr.com/post/105727958526/scythian-bow-quiver-and-arrows-c-3rd-1st gives another Scythian quiver
no bowcase though? Or was the unstrung bow just stuck in the quiver?
Lord knows about the attribution of this one, but its a similar weapon set and Scythian costume.
http://scythianbow.weebly.com/uploads/5/2/5/9/52598487/7794114_orig.jpg
Quote from: Duncan Head on May 16, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
I suspect "Scythian dress" is just an approximation for "long sleeves and trousers". I can't see any real indication of bands of embroidery; the tunic hem and the sleeves are the commonest places for such, and there's no sign here. And other Bosporan stelae and paintings don't often (ever?) show them.
The stele of Rhodion son of Helios has definite bands around the neck and closure line plus (I think) down the shoulders .
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on May 16, 2017, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Swampster on May 16, 2017, 12:04:22 AM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on May 15, 2017, 08:24:16 PM
Bow, shield and sword; with reference to an earlier discussion, might this solve the conundrum about Mithridates' archers and how and why they stood up to Roman legionaries?
I might remind you that a certain person wrote in that discussion:
" The use of the bow is (except for Cretans) basically incompatible with that of the shield. So unless we want a hypothesis whereby a unit of archers followed the swordsmen into the marsh, picking up shields and throwing away bows (in the middle of the Romans who were striking down fugitives left, right and centre) then on the basis of what Plutarch has written we are left with bow-armed swordsmen, whether they resisted or not."
I think a certain person has added the first sentence of that paragraph to his diet ;): did not the statue/monument discovered near Chaeronea and apparently related to the Roman victory incidentally depict a shielded swordsman with what appeared to be a bow?
I wasn't sure what your first comment meant at first but now I get you :)
The Chaeronea monument I know of just seems to be a collection of weapons, not necessarily from the same person. The shield is, IIRC, even more incompatible with a bow.
If the more recent discovery of the other trophy has been published and has some useful pics, I'd be very interested.
Sadly, all I can find on the internet is numerous references to the Lion of Chaeronea. Duncan did post a picture towards the end of our previous Chaeronea/Pontic archers discussion, and that is what I (think I) was referring to.
Winston Churchill once said: "I have often had to eat my own words, and found it a most wholesome diet." The point I missed was that although using a shield and bow together is difficult to impossible with any sort of substantial shield (the observation is actually Gibbon's rather than mine), it is by no means impossible to carry a bow and a shield and use one or the other as the situation demands (Achaemenid Persians did it all the time).
Quote from: aligern on May 16, 2017, 04:26:03 PM
Lord knows about the attribution of this one, but its a similar weapon set and Scythian costume.
http://scythianbow.weebly.com/uploads/5/2/5/9/52598487/7794114_orig.jpg
We've seen that before, haven't we, and I think we were unable to come up with a convincing origin.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on May 16, 2017, 09:24:14 PM
Sadly, all I can find on the internet is numerous references to the Lion of Chaeronea. Duncan did post a picture towards the end of our previous Chaeronea/Pontic archers discussion, and that is what I (think I) was referring to.
Seems I posted this link http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=406277&partId=1&searchText=sculpture before though I have no recollection...
I think it is an assemblage of typical Pontic gear from a variety of troops rather than the equipment of one person. If it were, then including a bow but excluding any other arms is a bit odd.
It is likely to be just one part of a larger collection - a corner piece perhaps with the actual trophy rising above.
This is not the one I think I remember - though the combination of bow and shield is interesting if intended as a panhoplon from an individual as opposed to one of a number of spear-less composites. Agreed that it may have been part of a larger trophy; would it make sense for the peripheral decorations (such as this one) each to represent a panhoplon from a particular troop type?
Just trying to get a feel for how often bow and shield together turn up in 1st century BC sculpture for the region.
Quote from: Swampster on May 17, 2017, 08:00:38 AM
Seems I posted this link http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=406277&partId=1&searchText=sculpture before though I have no recollection...
I agree with Peter that this is more likely to be an assemblage of typical weapons than a portrait of one soldier. And the link with the Pontic battles is not certain anyway - Nick Sekunda makes it in the academic version of his Romanized Hellenistic Infantry book, but the BM as linked to by Peter doesn't venture a date, and the carving is said to have been found in Athens or Marathon. It could be part of a commemoration of almost anything.
Tangentially, there is http://www.romanhideout.com/news/2004/kathimerini20041209.asp on the finding of a trophy from the Pontic defeat at Orchomenus. But zooming in on the picture, all I can see is what looks like a sword atop an oval shield, on the fragment in the foreground.
Inconclusive, then. A pity, as a bow+sword+shield combination would explain the battlefield behaviour of the Pontic archers.
Here's another Bosporan with thyreos and bow: the right-hand figure of the three at http://warfare.netau.net/Ancient/Bosporan-Terracotta_statuettes.htm (http://warfare.netau.net/Ancient/Bosporan-Terracotta_statuettes.htm), the nude guy, seems to have a gorytos in his left hand.
Is that not a sword hilt just over his left hand? I think the rest may be the folds of a cloak. A Galatian perhaps?
If it is a bow case, I'd suspect that the nudity might point to a divine portrayal.
Hard to tell, but it looks to me as if the said figure is holding what is left of either a broken bow or what may be a broken sword held left-handed.
Would a left-handed swordsman be unusual?
The figure does seem to have a shoulder-strap for something, perhaps a gorytos quiver?
Hmm, that's the second posting of mine that's disappeared within a couple of days. In this case, it may be that I was trying to update simultaneously with Patrick's post?
Anyway: Zooming in and looking from various angles, I am fairly sure I can see a rectangular outline, central pattern, and open "mouth". It still looks like a bow-case to me.
Divinity? Maybe. It certainly looks a bit different from anything else Bosporan I have seen.