The new Victrix plastic horse archers show one pose with the right arm fully back, with the arrow behind the head, to fire backwards. Is that how the "Parthian Shot" worked? I always assumed they just turned at the waist.
Just found the Victrix pose you refer to....looks like a Wild West Show trick riding stunt, rather than anything likely to have been used in reality. A serious quantity of 'artistic licence' seems to have gone into that one....😳
This one?
Could that be an interpretation of (eg) this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/SilverBowlNFPPakistan5-6thcenturyCE.JPG/250px-SilverBowlNFPPakistan5-6thcenturyCE.JPG)
Various moderns appear to do it that way:
(https://i.redd.it/d32mtt5z8hr51.jpg)
if you can get the power and direction in the same way as a standard shot then this is a very stable position on the horse
Quote from: RichT on December 21, 2022, 07:22:02 PM
Could that be an interpretation of (eg) this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/SilverBowlNFPPakistan5-6thcenturyCE.JPG/250px-SilverBowlNFPPakistan5-6thcenturyCE.JPG)
That appears to have the right hand in front of the head, rather than behind. Especially one of the fingers.
Quote from: Holly on December 21, 2022, 08:00:27 PM
if you can get the power and direction in the same way as a standard shot then this is a very stable position on the horse
With a conventional position you can sight along the arrow, while with this one the eyes appear to be off at an angle.
true, its a trade off of stability whilst riding versus accuracy. with practice though a reasonable level of proficiency should be possible?
Assuming the shooting is against a massed unit then accuracy probably less important than firing at the right trajectory - something is going to get hit. One has to assume that pursuit is moving as well so very different to firing accurately into a static target.
very true!
Quote from: Cantabrigian on December 22, 2022, 04:57:50 AM
That appears to have the right hand in front of the head, rather than behind. Especially one of the fingers.
This image is clearer:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Hephthalite_horseman_on_British_Museum_bowl_460-479_CE.jpg)
It looks like a behind the head shot to me. I have no idea why anyone would do this (or if Parthians did it), but it does appear that some people do and did, so it is/was a thing.
assuming a 2 fingered grip, if the rider leans right into the mane of the horse, by using this method he can get a fairly unencumbered shot off whilst keeping his own 'profile' low
Good alignment of the shoulder muscles perhaps.
Quote from: RichT on December 22, 2022, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: Cantabrigian on December 22, 2022, 04:57:50 AM
That appears to have the right hand in front of the head, rather than behind. Especially one of the fingers.
It looks like a behind the head shot to me. I have no idea why anyone would do this (or if Parthians did it), but it does appear that some people do and did, so it is/was a thing.
Must admit, my first thought was the Assyrian convention of showing the string behind the head to avoid it running across the face and spoiling the picture.
Quote from: Anton on December 22, 2022, 12:59:09 PM
Good alignment of the shoulder muscles perhaps.
also possible
I'm trying to figure out what contortions are required to nock the arrow!
Quote from: Erpingham on December 22, 2022, 01:08:52 PM
Must admit, my first thought was the Assyrian convention of showing the string behind the head to avoid it running across the face and spoiling the picture.
Could be - as the arrow and string are engraved into the surface rather than in relief, they couldn't easily be shown in front. On the other hand, if the bow was actually drawn as depicted, the string would take off the right side of the archer's face on loosing. On the other other hand, showing the draw position realistically would require much deeper relief than is available on a bowl. Who knows? As usual, trying to extract technical details from works of art is a mug's game.
A quick google image search for the Parthian shot shows historical images almost invariably show the bow shot normally.
The exception was
(https://civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/4fcf55ef-eec6-4025-918d-37713cd897f1.jpg)
This is clearly following the Assyrian style, as the head is between the string and the bow.
The "trick shot" version shows up as modern reenactments (including Mike Loades).
While accepting your caution about interpreting art, the wide range of artistic representations suggest the "normal" Parthian shot used the bow in conventional fashion.
Sure. In fact your example isn't an exception, since the string clearly passes in front of the body meaning this is a standard draw.
The OP wondered what the evidence for the 'trick' shot was - I suggested it might be an interpretation of the Hephthalite bowl or of modern reenactors doing the same. But we need wonder no more since the Victrix site (https://www.victrixlimited.com/products/ancient-horse-archer?variant=40162608152675) helpfuilly gives their reference:
(https://miniset.net/files/set/vcx-vxa048-7.jpg)
which sure enough is the Iranian chap and Mike Loades (but not the Hephthalite bowl).
So we might wonder where the Iranian chap or Mike Loades got the idea (I suggest - the Hephthalite bowl), or we might shrug our shoulders and wander off.
Latham's "Notes on Mamluk Horse-Archers" (
BSOAS 1969) lists the different kinds of shot discussed by the Mamluk author Taybugha (in the work translated by Latham as
Saracen Archery). They include:
Quote10. To right or left flank rear from the nape of the neck. Here the archer brings the fully drawn bow right up over his head which he tucks in beneath his right forearm with the hand lodged in the nape. Alternatively, he may swivel the bow in his hand before drawing, bringing the string to rest on the outside of his arm. He the brings his left forearm on to the nape and nocks, locks and draws with his right hand.
So I suspect that the inspiration for Mike Loades et al. includes mediaeval Islamic archery manuals.
And in fact (this is relevant also to the recent libraries thread) I have on my shelf (evidently unread!) Mike Loades' The Composite Bow, which says (p. 54) "The jarmaki required the archer to shoot with his draw-hand behind the head. It enabled a very tight, downwards shot, adjacent to the horse... Taybugha also commended the jarmaki shot for the infantry archer shooting down from fortifications... (Latham & Paterson 1970: 137)". The picture used as a reference by Victrix is on this page. Mike says it sounds like a 'challenging contortion' but is reasonably easy in practice.
So you are right, Duncan, this comes from Taybugha.
So to summarise - the Victrix pose was a real historical pose, but it was for a very specific purpose (shooting downwards) and was not a standard way of taking a Parthian shot, which appears to have been normally done in the normal way (rotating at the waist). Question answered? :)
Quote from: RichT on December 22, 2022, 06:50:14 PM
So to summarise - the Victrix pose was a real historical pose, but it was for a very specific purpose (shooting downwards) and was not a standard way of taking a Parthian shot, which appears to have been normally done in the normal way (rotating at the waist). Question answered? :)
Excellent use of the stored knowledge both electronic and physical there :)
Quote
So to summarise - the Victrix pose was a real historical pose, but it was for a very specific purpose (shooting downwards) and was not a standard way of taking a Parthian shot, which appears to have been normally done in the normal way (rotating at the waist). Question answered? :)
Thank you! :) (I also have that "Composite Bow" book, but also did not recall that passage. :-[