Gents, If anybody has any questions on the Tactica 2 battle reports in Slingshot, I am happy to try nd answer them here. The first one was the Sumerian game.
Thanks Simon. Good to see a home thead for T2
As usual with your battles Simon there were a lot of well painted classical-style 25mms out. You mentioned that it was about 2,000 Tactica points which means very little to me. How many figures were there and how many men did they represent?
Also how did you structure the armies to match what we know of the organisation - both strategic and tactical - of the armies of that period. My assumption is that as you progress through history there will be changes to match how the armies evolved in terms of command and organisation.
Dave,
As you quite rightly infer, we don't know much about the organisation and structure of Sumerian armies. What we do know is that the 4 onager battlecars were more manoeuvrable than they initially appear (based on a reconstruction built during a practical archaeology documentary I once saw; now seemingly unavailable (I have searched). We also know that they were seemingly prestigious and probably pretty effective in combat based on the artwork on various artefacts remaining which show stylised 'running over' of opponents like Egyptian reliefs and paintings.
We also know that there was formed spear-armed infantry formations from the Vulture Stele for instance.
Tactica 2 doesn't have a figure/man scale. It just uses figures in units to represent ancient formations. So for Heavy Infantry for example, a Tactica 2 unit could be between a minimum of 24 figures strong to a maximum of 48 figures (normally) and deployed on a minimum frontage of 8 figures and a maximum of 12 figures.
I a Sumerian context with City State armies, I cannot be certain of the actual sizes of the armies but I suspect that they were much more likely to be of the order of a couple of thousands or so maximum.
So a Tactica 2 48 figure Massed heavy Infantry unit in such a game would posibly represent around 500 men or so; as I envisage it..
I will include Army Lists in later episodes but for the time being, I attach a base List from which the armies were selected.
I hope that this gives you an idea.
Cheers
SimonSumerian List (1).xls
Dave,
as a further illustration of the absence of a single figure/man ratio in Tactica 2, the Roman Republican (manipular) Legion of around 5000 men is represented in Tactica 2 by 36 figures (excluding Velites) organised into 3 lines of Hastati, Principes and Triarii. Whereas the Imperial Roman Legion (Cohort system) of about 5000 men is represented by 88 figures organised in 10 Chohorts of 8 figures with the first cohort double (88 figures optionally).
Of course, as Tactica 2 is designed for historical matchups, there's not really any intention to play with Republican Romans versus Imperial Romans although the individual figure costs in points terms are the same. The Republican Romans are designed to fight (primarily) the Carthaginians but also Successor Hellenistic armies and also Spanish and perhaps Gauls, These games work fine. The sizes of the battles usually involves at least 4 Legions; thereby representing in excess of 20,000 men. Large battles.
The Imperial Romans (Caesarian included) are aimed primarily at Gauls and Germans et. al. (e.g. Mithridatics) and usually involve 2 Legions (160-176 Legionary figures); that is around 10,000 legionaries.
So in the latter case, 176 figures represent 10,000 men and in the former case 144 figures represent 20,000 legionaries.
We have fought Pharsalus for Roman Civil Wars.
As will be described in Episodes 7 and 8, the Roman systems will be described in Tactica 2 game terms with the dedicated rules for each (Line Relief, Line Reinforcement and Legion Breakpoint).
Cheers
Simon
That's interesting Simon. Does the variable abstraction level cause confusion with the ground scale in that some armies will be fitter (i.e. march faster) and shoot further than others depending on the ratio in operation?
I am assuming that the ratio is common across both sides for a particular battle or that could muck up the time-space continuum considerably.
David,
Tactica 2 games start with the premise that both armies have arrived at the battlefield and accepted 'battle'. The games start with the armies deployed (in accordance with a plan or similar) and then proceed with the advance to combat (or static defence if so desired; a losing strategy usually). All infantry movement is 8" and all cavalry movement is 12". Light troops can maneouvre with greater facility than heavies but there is no variation between armies or troops enshrined in the rules for all games. Of course, the scenario 'designer' can add these in if he/her wishes to do so.
The original Tactica used to use 'maneouvre columns' in the Deployment phase but in Tactica 2 this has been dropped with the armies starting Deployed and ready for battle.
The Terrain rules are reflective of this situation too and lots of Terrain is not usually generated by the Terrain rolling rules. again, of course a Terrain-rich scenario can be created but most armies wouldn't really cope with that that well
In sum, Tactica 2 is a 'set piece battle' set of rules (between historically matched opponents) and so is more limited in scope for pre-battle manoeuvring, weather, terrain, fatigue, off-table manoeuvring and so on. Rules for such are not included in the rulebook. It would be up to players to design these into specific scenarios. That said, the basic rules are sufficiently simple that are mechanisms that could probably be pretty easily adapted to permit such.
As I recall, the old WRG 5th/6th rules tried to cover pretty much everything (flank marches, night marches, fatigue, weather, much more terrain variety, detailed variations in weapon types and changes in formations and so on. I grew up with these rules and although they could be fun, so many 'anomalies' were integral to the rules that so many games were so unbalanced that they probably weren't worth playing if both sides thought that they had a chance of winning.
That said, of the 2 sets of rules, I much prefer Tactica 2 games to the old WRG 5th/6th games with all their additional complexity and the anomalies. (I regularly used to get smashed by Seleucids when fighting with my Hoplites). I tried making them 'extra heavy', double armed with javelins and long spear, medium infantry etc. Pretty much everything I could think of but the Seleucids aways had answers; elephants, cataphracts, massed pikes, Thracians with 2 handed cutting weapons and javelins, even scythed chariots, massive bodies of levy bowmen etc., etc., etc. The games were 'social' and not competition so I didn't mind losing 'all the time' but the games were never 'fair'.
Cheers
Simon
Just to add my two drachmae worth: Tactica originally had a notional troop ratio of 1:60. However, 1:80 not only means somewhat fewer figures, but it makes for a pleasing conversion for all those folks who have based for Warhammer Ancients and other rules using 20mm frontage per close formation infantry figure. The reason it's pleasing is this means the Marian legion onwards has one figure per century, i.e. six figures per cohort. Ten of these cohorts = 60 figures instead of 80 at the original ratio, although they would occupy the same footprint. These games can be large, so saving on figures has its uses.
Here's another example: the Achaemenid Immortals. At 1:80, 10,000 Immortals converts (roughly!) to four 'regiments' of 36 figures, assuming some attrition. At 1:60, it would be four units of 32 figures, which would deploy in four ranks, or three units of 36 in three ranks.
Cheers Paul. Good to hear from you. Have you had your summer holiday yet?
Yes, although I couldn't make it to Scotland this time. It was cut short because I had to return to the UAE to complete a house move. Maybe next year!?
I agree with you Simon that WRG 6th did become a bit too complex and Seleucids did emerge as the new super power taking over from Late Romans. However the 4th/5th (under which I did most of my competitive wargaming) were reasonably simple (the last of the historical general's rules probably) and my Early Imperial Romans enjoyed a fair degree of success (unless they were facing horse archer armies in a small battle on a large table with no terrain). I think I can recall a couple of flank marches in some battles but no night marches etc.
Be interested to see how you organise the armies (both tactically and strategically) for later period battles.
Ah 5th.....
Fond memories
David, Republican Romans are in Episode 7 and Caesarians in Episode 8. Still got to fight the Caesarians versus Gauls or British yet.
Always good to have an expert on hand
Dave,
Cheers. Republican Roman Legions for a normal-sized Tactica 2 game would be bought in 2 pairs; totalling 144 Legionaries. You wouldn't really want to go smaller than that.
Simon
Point of order, Mr. Chairman . . .
Under section 1.1 Game Scales on page 1 of the rulebook, it reads:
That said, TACTICA scales are approximately as follows: one Figure equals 40-60 soldiers depending upon troop type, density, tactical operating area, and unit size; one inch is approximately 10-15 yards; one Turn, 20 minutes.
Flipping to the army lists . . . Heavy Infantry can have a maximum of 48 figures, while cavalry and light infantry can have 24-27. Using the approximate scale provided, this gives a range of between 1,920 and 2,880 for foot and 960 to 1,620 for light infantry and cavalry.
These sums MIGHT HELP if and when figuring out orders of battle for historical refights. MIGHT.
Cheers,
Chris
Chris,
You are correct of course. But these figures are pretty sketchy and fluid. There isn't really a figure to man scale. For most pick-up games on a standard 8ft by 5ft table with 25/8mm figures, the usual army size is between 2,000pts and 3,000pts. At an average figure cost of between 5pts and 6pts (depends on the army), this equate to between 300+ to 600- figures in an army on the standard table. This would be for the game. It's pretty notional and up to the players really to decide what size of actual battle this would 'represent'. It could be Hastings with 10,000- men on each side or Gaugemela with 50,000 or 100,000 men on a side. So on this basis, say 500 figures could represent 10,000 men (20 men per figure) or 100,000 men (200 men per figure). That's about as far as I would 'push it' in terms of figure to man scale.
Cheers
Simon
P.S. Tactica 2 is a warGAME and not a simulation. That said, it is designed to generate the 'feel' of recreating tabletop tactics and armies which resemble some of the characteristics of their historical precursors to some extent whilst playing an enjoyable game. realistically, recreating a large, ancient battle on the tabletop is nigh if not totally impossible with wargames figures simply because of the battleline to depth consideration.
For instance, say 8 men deep occupy around 10 yards. A battleline of 30,000 men in such a formation would occupy over 3750 yards or around 2 miles (at one yard per man)! 10 yards deep to 2 miles wide isn't a practical tabletop ratio for a simulation using figures. You would have to play with 2 lines of string!
That's basically why simulation isn't really a prime requisite as far as I'm concerned. I just want to put my lovingly painted and miniature warriors on the tabletop and play an enjoyable game with them whilst also role playing the part of an ancient general by being faced by some of the kinds of tactical considerations an ancient general may have had AND to have fun doing so!
Cheers
Simon
Simon,
Your points are well taken and well said. Your love for Tactica 2, to the exclusion of all other rules/systems, is quite evident. The recent article about 3000 BC armies having at each other in the just arrived Slingshot is yet more evidence.
Funny you should mention Hastings and Gaugamela, as Hastings was played with GRAND TRIUMPH (it's on the video channel at YouTube for the rules - but be warned, it's in 3 parts and takes about 3 hours.) Gaugamela was the First Battle Day selection, was it not? It might prove interesting to see how various sets would handle such a large battle (ground scale, numbers and all) today.
Understand and appreciate your driving force(s) and prime concern(s) behind your gaming habits. Imagine that these are shared by legions of others. However, there will be those camps who find great appeal in simulation while using traditional figures or other representations, who adhere to the tactics used at that time, and who want to have fun and enjoy themselves as well.
As the adages or cliches state: Variety is the spice of life (and wargaming), and Horses for courses.
Cheers,
Chris
Chris,
You are right again! The joy of the hobby is that there's something for everybody! For those who like detailed simulation to those who just like playing games. Good luck to everyone in finding their niche.
Cheers
Simon
Quote from: Chris on August 23, 2023, 12:05:44 PMAs the adages or cliches state: Variety is the spice of life (and wargaming), and Horses for courses.
You could add "It takes all sorts" (if they use said cliche in the US) :)
Anthony,
Yeah! Dinosaurs like me can still find their niche; involving 25/8mm models, grouped into units and deployed in large numbers in battlelines!
Cheers
Simon