Going back to a topic raised on the Currently Reading thread, we have two sources that describe this unusual formation adopted by Chabrias against the Spartans.
Nepos:
Chabrias 1:2:
| reliquam phalangem loco vetuit cedere obnixoque genu scuto, proiecta hasta impetum excipere hostium docuit. Id novum Agesilaus contuens progredi non est ausus suosque iam revocavit.
he forbade the remainder of the phalanx to cede the place, instructing it with shield braced against (projecting) knee, to receive the enemy attack with (projecting) spears |
The 'projecting' in the Latin can grammatically refer either to the knee or the spears; neuter ablative case if referring to the knee, plural feminine case if referring to the spears.
Diodorus 15.32:
| Χαβρίας δ᾽ ὁ Ἀθηναῖος τῶν μισθοφόρων ἀφηγούμενος παρήγγειλε τοῖς στρατιώταις δέχεσθαι τοὺς πολεμίους καταπεφρονηκότως ἅμα καὶ τεταγμένως, καὶ τὰς ἀσπίδας πρὸς τὸ γόνυ κλίναντας ὀρθῷ τῷ δόρατι μένειν. ὧν ποιησάντων τὸ προσταχθὲν ὥσπερ ἀφ᾽ ἑνὸς παρακελεύσματος, ὁ Ἀγησίλαος θαυμάσας τήν τε εὐταξίαν τῶν πολεμίων καὶ τὴν καταφρόνησιν, τὸ μὲν βιάζεσθαι πρὸς ὑπερδεξίους τόπους καὶ συναναγκάζειν τοὺς ἐναντίους ἄνδρας ἀγαθοὺς γίνεσθαι πρὸς τὸν ἐκ χειρὸς κίνδυνον οὐκ ἔκρινε, πεῖραν δὲ λαβὼν ὅτι τολμήσουσιν ἀναγκαζόμενοι διαγωνίσασθαι περὶ τῆς νίκης, ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ προεκαλεῖτο.
Chabrias the Athenian, however, leading his mercenary troops, ordered his men to receive the enemy with a show of contempt, maintaining all the while their battle lines, and, leaning their shields against their knees, to wait with upraised spear. Since they did what they were ordered as at a single word of command, Agesilaus, marvelling at the fine discipline of the enemy and their posture of contempt, judged it inadvisable to force a way against the higher ground and compel his opponents to show their valour in a hand-to-hand contest, and, having learned by trial that they would dare, if forced, to dispute the victory, he challenged them in the plain. |
Experimenting a bit, I have a problem with resting an aspis against the knee as it simply cannot be done if one is standing. The aspis is three feet long and convex, which means that when you stand, its rim rests against the top of your thighs or your waist, and doesn't touch the knees at all. And why not 'knees' in the plural since if you stand the shield would rest against both if it could rest against one?
If you kneel however and hold the aspis normally the bottom edge - 18 inches from your left arm - will just cover your knee with the rim that projects a little below it. What is interesting though is that the top rim of the aspis will be just below your eyes, meaning you are very well covered. You do not have to exert any muscular effort to hold up the aspis as the knee takes its weight. Your right arm will have to extend straight downwards to hold the spear that projects pretty much straight ahead below the aspis, or you hold it in a high underarm grip (more likely) or an overarm grip (less likely) above the shield.
IMHO and after some reflection, Chabrias, with 'projected' applied to the knee, makes more sense than Diodorus.
Peter Connolly's interpretation of Chabrias' "at ease" position (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/5d/6d/c9/5d6dc96d06d4bece2f9ae3df9b6cb324.jpg) (second from the left). One knee.
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 17, 2018, 07:17:23 PM
Peter Connolly's interpretation of Chabrias' "at ease" position (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/5d/6d/c9/5d6dc96d06d4bece2f9ae3df9b6cb324.jpg) (second from the left). One knee.
Not the knee!
After Duncan's mentioned J.K. Anderson's Military Theory & Practice in the Age of Xenophon as being the starting point of the theory of the at ease position with the shield resting on the knee, I pulled my copy of the book and found the discussion in Chapter V "Weapon Training."
Anderson refers to the confrontation between Chabrias' command and the Spartans under Agesilaus where Agesilaus "marveled at the good discipline of the enemy and at heir disdain." Anderson feels that this "at ease" position was a standard hoplite drill since it was instantly copied by the Theban Sacred Band. He also mentions that the attitude of "contempt" exhibited by Chabrias' ordering his troops to "at ease" also avoids fatiguing his men by keeping them in a shields up and spears levelled position while waiting for the Spartans to advance.
Anderson has two plates in his boo, both Attic red-figured hydria (vases), showing a hoplite standing upright with the shield resting on a knee and the spear held upright.
More food for thought.
I must admit I was never convinced by Connolly's suggestion, it certainly doesn't look like an 'at ease' position or something you'd draw up hoplites in for any length of time waiting.
Also it doesn't show any sort of contempt. It's more cowering behind the shield as if you're waiting for an arrow storm
This seems to be a common interpretation among re-enactors
(https://www.ancienthoplitikon.com/thumbnaillarge/37Spartans.jpg)
Perhaps we should ask Paul bardunias about it, as he has the reconstruction experience?
Quote from: Erpingham on November 18, 2018, 09:49:04 AM
This seems to be a common interpretation among re-enactors
(https://www.ancienthoplitikon.com/thumbnaillarge/37Spartans.jpg)
Perhaps we should ask Paul bardunias about it, as he has the reconstruction experience?
We can, though the photo makes pretty clear the knee doesn't feature. If Chabrias' hoplites had been leaning/bracing the shield against the
leg -
crus, σκέλος - this photo would have made perfect sense.
QuoteWe can, though the photo makes pretty clear the knee doesn't feature.
I don't think it shows clearly what is done with the leg, or the knee. The guy on the right hand end is adopting a left leg forward stance but we can't really tell from this angle the rest of the position, hence suggesting asking someone who has done it.
To carry on beating the topic to death, I did a couple of diagrams showing a kneeling and standing skeleton with an aspis to scale. The moveable skeleton can be accessed here (https://www.kineman.com/) for anyone interested.
(https://i.imgur.com/PPIx1Xn.jpg)
Notice that the shield is about 8 - 9 inches away from the knee of the standing skeleton, and when touching the knee of the kneeling skeleton provides good coverage. I suspect the kneeling skeleton would have to lean forward a bit more to allow the forearm to reach the porpax.
Possibly there is a need to widen this out beyond the two sources here. We do not know how familiar either Diodorus or nepos were with hoplite drill. We do know that Diodorus thought the point was to show contempt by adopting a resting position. Its possible that the hoplite at ease position was kneeling (didn't Roman triarii kneel while waiting?) but perhaps we need to look wider at e.g. images of hoplites at rest, earlier descriptions of hoplites standing around which may reflect more contemporary impressions to better see the truth of the matter.
I can see no advantage in the kneeling pose whatsoever other than if you're suffering a lot of arrow fire. It's not comfortable, it's not a pose you can get into action from swiftly
When looking at the knee, there's no reason why the middle of the shield has to rest on the knee, it might be that the shield rested with the rim against the side of the knee so the shield is actually to the side of the hoplite rather than in front
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 18, 2018, 04:54:55 PM
When looking at the knee, there's no reason why the middle of the shield has to rest on the knee, it might be that the shield rested with the rim against the side of the knee so the shield is actually to the side of the hoplite rather than in front
It is possible. On the kneeling pose, it does appear in art but I suspect it's often because of compositional requirements of the space available e.g. a coin. Whether it is an "at ease" pose, I don't know. Given the shield isn't grounded, it may not be.
Incidentally, while looking at images of kneeling hoplites, I came across this one
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Greek_-_Black-figure_Amphora_-_Walters_4810_-_Side_B.jpg)
Closer inspection shows these hoplites are crouching, rather than kneeling, which would be a bit uncomfortable. Interesting archer/hoplite co-operation, though.
Quote
The 'projecting' in the Latin can grammatically refer either to the knee or the spears; neuter ablative case if referring to the knee, plural feminine case if referring to the spears.
No, that's just wrong, as discussed in the other thread. There's no point continuing to flog that particular dead horse since if you want to insist on a kneeling position you are free to do so without mistranslating the Latin - Nepos' words don't rule out a kneeling position (neither do Diodorus') so it's a possibility, just IMHO (and the HO of other people too) less likely given the 'contempt' being shown. Kneeling behind a shield (Connolly's leftmost image) wouldn't obviously fit that description, and Nepos' account isn't explicit that anyone is kneeling - even if 'projecting knees' were correct WHICH IT ISN'T that doesn't require kneeling - Matthew for example interprets the pose as bent leg and shield held between knee and shoulder.
For those of you with Jstor access (or a decent library) there's this good article (https://www.jstor.org/stable/147388) with plenty of kneeling and at ease illustrations referenced.
The most convincing evidence for me is Xenophon
Anabasis 1.5.13, describing an altercation among the 10,000:
"Clearchus escaped to his own army and at once called his troops to arms; he ordered his hoplites to remain where they were, resting their shields against their knees, while he himself with the Thracians and the horsemen, of which he had in his army more than forty, most of them Thracians, advanced upon Menon's troops"
Now this in theory could also be a reference to a kneeling position, but would make precious little sense in this context and has been universally recognised as the 'at ease' position (which is frequently depicted in art). Remember, the hoplite shield is a pain to carry for long periods, so resting it on the ground leaning on the leg is an obvious thing to do, and Xenophon's words (which are very similar to Diodorus') indicate that 'leaning on the knee' could describe this position (even if in reality the knee might not be much involved).
It's an interesting, much discussed topic though, and nobody can rule a kneeling position out completely, but please stop messing with the Latin, there's no need to do so.
The skeleton picture makes me think of the skellies in Jason and the Argonauts (the proper Ray Harryhausen ones) - great film. :)
Quote from: RichT on November 18, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Quote
The 'projecting' in the Latin can grammatically refer either to the knee or the spears; neuter ablative case if referring to the knee, plural feminine case if referring to the spears.
No, that's just wrong, as discussed in the other thread.
Actually you're quite right. Double-checking the declension of
proiecta as a neuter participle gives
proiecto for the ablative, not
proiecta. My bad. :'(
A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order. They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents
Quote from: PMBardunias on December 04, 2018, 04:29:44 AM
A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents
Funnily enough, this is quite similar to modern Swedish were
knä means "knee", but the expression
i knät means "in the lap" (and not "in the knee" as you'd think from the component words). Knee,
knä, and
gonu are all from the same IE root, so one wonders if the knee/lap ambiguity is original.
Quote from: PMBardunias on December 04, 2018, 04:29:44 AM
A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order. They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents
Mmmh.
γόνυ means 'knee' in classical Greek. It doesn't mean anything else. And if your front rank hoplite is kneeling with his shield right up at his eyes, and the chap right behind him is standing, and both have spears aimed at you from different angles, then good luck to you. See if you can dispatch the front ranker as easily as all that.
Presuming the front ranker is actually kneeling, this disposition resembles the fulkon, which was a perfectly viable anti-infantry as well as anti-cavalry formation. It does actually work.
The burden of proof lies in showing that leaning hoplon shields on knees is a physical possibility.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on December 04, 2018, 11:14:53 AM
Presuming the front ranker is actually kneeling, this disposition resembles the fulkon, which was a perfectly viable anti-infantry as well as anti-cavalry formation. It does actually work.
But they only kneel in the anti-cavalry
foulkon. In the ordinary one, the two ranks with the overlapping shields are standing.
They advance in a fulcum, whenever, as the battle lines are
coming close together, both ours and the enemy's, the archery is
about to commence, and those arrayed in the front line are not
wearing mail coats or greaves. He [the herald] orders, "ad
fulco." And those arrayed right at the very front mass their
shields together until they come shield-boss to shield-boss,
completely covering their stomachs almost to their shins. The
men standing just behind them, raising their shields and resting
them on the shield-bosses of those in front, cover their chests
and faces, and in this way they engage.Note, in passing, that the standard
foulkon is an anti-missile defence. The implication is that infantry advance on infantry and stand against cavalry.
Quote
The burden of proof lies in showing that leaning hoplon shields on knees is a physical possibility.
How so? How do we know that leaning against the knee was a literal statement not a figurative one meaning "standing at ease"? Surely, the burden is to consider how hoplites would show contempt through a drill action - kneeling or resting their shields against their legs?
Quote from: Justin Swanton on December 04, 2018, 11:14:53 AMMmmh. γόνυ means 'knee' in classical Greek. It doesn't mean anything else.
I note that Liddell and Scott disagree with you.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on December 04, 2018, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: PMBardunias on December 04, 2018, 04:29:44 AM
A bit late to the party, but I am of the opinion that it was as Duncan showed from Connolly. You may read some that say it was a defensive position that was "set" to receive a hoplite charge. The problem is that hoplites are not horses and the charging lines I have been in would simply stop and stab anyone on their knees in the face in short order. They could have been kneeling on one knee with the shield on the ground, then it can rest on the knee itself, but either way, it was an at ease, not defensive posture. A note though, some variations on the stem γόνυ^ refer to a lap, so the definition as knee may not be as tight as it first seems. Perhaps "resting on the knee" and "resting on the thigh" were not so different to Diodorus. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=go%2Fnu&la=greek&can=go%2Fnu0&prior=to\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0083:book=15:chapter=32&i=1#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=go/nu^-contents
There is one problem with a Folcum analogy, The guy kneeling has no shield over his face. Thus, I can stand at a range that the standing man behind him cannot reach me and plant my spear in his face. I can also move forward an back with my line of standing men, while they are stuck in place. Overall, this is the type of formation that sounds good in theory, but falls apart in real life.
Follow the link I posted, γόνυ does not always mean knee. And again, this is not a folcum because of the lack of overlapping shields.
Looking through the dictionaries, the word γόνυ can be used as a metaphor much in the the same way it is used in English: bend the knee, bring someone to his knees, etc. But the word itself means 'knee'. It doesn't mean 'hip' or 'thigh'. So setting a shield firmly against the knee or resting a shield against the knee must mean exactly that unless the phrase is a common expression meaning 'to take it easy on the battlefield', or something like that. Which needs to be proven.
Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband with what she possessed and now sits upon the ground, holding his head in her lap [epi tois gonasi]."
Xenophon Anabasis 7.3.23 "But a certain Arcadian named Arystas, a terrible eater, would have none of this throwing about, but took in his hand a loaf as big as a three-quart measure, put some pieces of meat upon his knees [epi ta gonata], and proceeded to dine."
Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 "Clearchus escaped to his own army and at once called his troops to arms; he ordered his hoplites to remain where they were, resting their shields against their knees [pros ta gonata]"
Diodorus 15.32.5 "Chabrias the Athenian, however, leading his mercenary troops, ordered his men to receive the enemy with a show of contempt, maintaining all the while their battle lines, and, leaning their shields against their knees [pros to gonu], to wait with upraised spear."
'Gonu' can mean 'knee' when it needs to mean knee, and it can mean 'lap' or 'leg' (or something vaguer) when it needs to mean lap or leg, just as 'knee' can in English. Most of us learn this sort of thing, the subtlety of language, at our mother's knee.
In the Chabrias case, Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 puts the burden of proof firmly on anyone who insists that Diodorus 15.32.5 means something different (in this case, specifically the knee joint and no other part of the leg). This sort of hyper-literalism must have some limits, for heaven's sake.
Quote from: RichT on December 05, 2018, 08:30:33 AM
Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband
this is a beautiful example of the flexibility of language
decked has evolved over a comparatively short time 8)
Quote from: RichT on December 05, 2018, 08:30:33 AM
Xenophon Cyropaedia 7.3.5 "But his wife, they say, has decked her husband with what she possessed and now sits upon the ground, holding his head in her lap [epi tois gonasi]."
Xenophon Anabasis 7.3.23 "But a certain Arcadian named Arystas, a terrible eater, would have none of this throwing about, but took in his hand a loaf as big as a three-quart measure, put some pieces of meat upon his knees [epi ta gonata], and proceeded to dine."
Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 "Clearchus escaped to his own army and at once called his troops to arms; he ordered his hoplites to remain where they were, resting their shields against their knees [pros ta gonata]"
Diodorus 15.32.5 "Chabrias the Athenian, however, leading his mercenary troops, ordered his men to receive the enemy with a show of contempt, maintaining all the while their battle lines, and, leaning their shields against their knees [pros to gonu], to wait with upraised spear."
'Gonu' can mean 'knee' when it needs to mean knee, and it can mean 'lap' or 'leg' (or something vaguer) when it needs to mean lap or leg, just as 'knee' can in English. Most of us learn this sort of thing, the subtlety of language, at our mother's knee.
In the Chabrias case, Xenophon Anabasis 1.5.13 puts the burden of proof firmly on anyone who insists that Diodorus 15.32.5 means something different (in this case, specifically the knee joint and no other part of the leg). This sort of hyper-literalism must have some limits, for heaven's sake.
Fair enough. Xenophon 1.5.13 is the clincher. Clearchus clearly wasn't telling his men to form a fulkum. 'Knees' in this context has to mean upper half of leg, which corresponds to 'lap' in the other examples.
I'm convinced. :)
Splendid! Now, about this othismos business... :)
Quote from: RichT on December 05, 2018, 01:59:16 PM
Splendid! Now, about this othismos business... :)
Paul....?
Quote from: Justin Swanton on December 05, 2018, 11:14:11 AM
I'm convinced. :)
I applaud you not fighting that position to the death.