I know the Greek version is on Perseus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0534%3Achapter%3D1), but does anyone know of an online version or even an ebook in English of Arrian's Tactics? I've hunted everywhere and no luck. I gotta have it! >:(
Kobo has an ebook edition of what claims to be Arrian's complete works; but disturbingly the Tactics aren't mentioned in the list of contents (neither is the Battle Order Against the Alans):
https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/ebook/complete-works-of-arrian-delphi-classics-1
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 01, 2018, 04:39:14 PM
Kobo has an ebook edition of what claims to be Arrian's complete works; but disturbingly the Tactics aren't mentioned in the list of contents (neither is the Battle Order Against the Alans):
https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/ebook/complete-works-of-arrian-delphi-classics-1
Already got that and, no, no Tactics in it.
Don't know of one online. LATO (https://sites.google.com/site/ancienttexts/gk-a3) doesn't list one, but since they also don't know van Dorst's text and translation of the Order Against the Alans (http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/Sources/ektaxis.html), LATO may not be fully comprehensive these days.
The only published translation I know of is DeVoto's (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flavius-Arrianus-J-DeVoto/dp/0890055173/), which is usable if a bit weird in places, and seems to be available only at quite a markup on the original price.
If I pleaded and begged and promised to be your best friend, would anyone be willing to scan and email me their copy? :'(
I wouldn't want to miss an opportunity to rant about academic publishing...
But how does it make sense in an age of ebooks to allow a unique translation like Devoto's to go out of publication??
Quote from: Dangun on April 03, 2018, 12:09:56 PM
But how does it make sense in an age of ebooks to allow a unique translation like Devoto's to go out of publication??
Expected sales < cost of creating ebook, presumably.
Or even, expected sales > cost of creating ebook but < expected return on using the manpower to do something else.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 03, 2018, 07:52:26 AM
If I pleaded and begged and promised to be your best friend, would anyone be willing to scan and email me their copy? :'(
Yes, all right. But I don't know when I will be able to get around to it - not before Battleday, and I have a couple of other things after that. So I hope you aren't in too much of a hurry.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 03, 2018, 04:58:30 PM
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 03, 2018, 07:52:26 AM
If I pleaded and begged and promised to be your best friend, would anyone be willing to scan and email me their copy? :'(
Yes, all right. But I don't know when I will be able to get around to it - not before Battleday, and I have a couple of other things after that. So I hope you aren't in too much of a hurry.
I can hang on till then.
And ta! :)
I can't verify if this is intact but this page is supposed to have van Dorst's translation.
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/Sources/ektaxis.html#T1
That's the Order of Battle against the Alans, Ektaxis kat' Alanon, not the Taktike - two different works.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 03, 2018, 04:46:09 PM
Expected sales < cost of creating ebook, presumably.
Logically, of course. I agree.
But if second hand copies are listed at US$500+, I would happily spend an hour turning it into an ebook for the price of a free copy! :)
ebooks w to middling quality are very easy to make.
Caliver Books have it listed on Amazon for £39.50, which doesn't seem a desperately high price to pay (how many toy soldiers does £40 buy?). Since this is their livelihood and they provide a good service (I got my copy from them IIRC) it would be nice to support them.
From Caliver website :
TAKTIKA OF FLAVIUS ARRIANUS Arrian 132p Greek original and English Translation. Combination of the Ideal Hellenistic/Macedonian army plus examples of some current (c150 AD) Roman usage. Includes THE EXPEDITION AGAINST THE ALANS £25.00
£25 when converted to S.A. Rands is more than double the price of a comparable book sold locally. And the price doesn't include shipping. A bit ouchy.
Well OK, though what would you call a comparable book, since this (a translation of Arrian) is unique? For books that are OOP and unavailable except at silly second hand prices then it's fair enough, but I'm not hugely in favour of taking scans of existing books that are readily available at reasonable prices from reputable sellers who depend on this sort of thing. But I'm not your conscience and don't want to lecture. :)
Incidentally you will find DeVoto's translation weird as Duncan says - it's almost like what anyone could produce with a dictionary (or a Perseus word lookup) and a bit of grammar knowledge - but it is intended to be very literal and alongside the Greek it is useful for that.
Quote from: RichT on April 04, 2018, 11:28:12 AM
Well OK, though what would you call a comparable book, since this (a translation of Arrian) is unique? For books that are OOP and unavailable except at silly second hand prices then it's fair enough, but I'm not hugely in favour of taking scans of existing books that are readily available at reasonable prices from reputable sellers who depend on this sort of thing. But I'm not your conscience and don't want to lecture. :)
A take-home salary of less than £900 p/m (£10 800 p/a) - can I bleat from that?
Rich and I did our best to find you are rare second hand copy. £25 is a bit expensive for a 120 page book but given its rarity, that's quite a good price. There seem to be few other copies about to compare. I'm sorry this is too much.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 04, 2018, 12:36:52 PM
Rich and I did our best to find you are rare second hand copy. £25 is a bit expensive for a 120 page book but given its rarity, that's quite a good price. There seem to be few other copies about to compare. I'm sorry this is too much.
I appreciate the trouble.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on April 04, 2018, 12:36:52 PM
Rich and I did our best to find you are rare second hand copy. £25 is a bit expensive for a 120 page book but given its rarity, that's quite a good price. There seem to be few other copies about to compare. I'm sorry this is too much.
I appreciate the trouble.
No trouble - happy to try and help.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 03, 2018, 07:52:26 AM
If I pleaded and begged and promised to be your best friend, would anyone be willing to scan and email me their copy? :'(
Please see http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3.0 (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3.0) Having someone scan a copy for you is a violation of copyright law.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 04, 2018, 10:34:37 AM
£25 when converted to S.A. Rands is more than double the price of a comparable book sold locally. And the price doesn't include shipping. A bit ouchy.
From http://www.arespublishers.com/PriceList.html it appears that the book is not out of print or stock at the publisher, though whether that list is entirely up to date I know not; and costs $15 USD direct from them, which is considerably cheaper than any price cited so far. Don't know what the postage might be.
According to the reviews from 1990s online $15 was the original purchase price. Remarkable if it was still available at that price a quarter century later. Lets hope so for Justin's sake.
Yes, it may just be that Ares haven't updated their price list, or even their entire website, for twenty years - they've always been a strange sort of a publisher. If I were Justin(*) then I'd drop them an email and see what happens.
(*)Which of course I'm not (**)
(**) Though no-one's ever seen us in the same room at the same time ...
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 04, 2018, 04:56:08 PM
(**) Though no-one's ever seen us in the same room at the same time ...
Yes, but according to your profile pictures you look like a member of the LRDG while Justin looks like a Roman. I suggest, members of the jury, that these are two different people.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 04, 2018, 04:56:08 PM
Yes, it may just be that Ares haven't updated their price list, or even their entire website, for twenty years - they've always been a strange sort of a publisher. If I were Justin(*) then I'd drop them an email and see what happens.
I sent an email to Dan Powers. Also checked their website and no activity there for at least three years. They were also dormant for about ten years before 2012. I have a vision of a mummy-like figure periodically rising from the tomb, doing some online work on a cobwebby PC and posting off some musty books, then subsiding back into hibernation for another decade or so.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 04, 2018, 04:56:08 PM(*)Which of course I'm not (**)
(**) Though no-one's ever seen us in the same room at the same time ...
Dr Who regularly reinvented himself as did David Bowie. Just sayin'. ::)
Quote from: Erpingham on April 04, 2018, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 04, 2018, 04:56:08 PM
(**) Though no-one's ever seen us in the same room at the same time ...
Yes, but according to your profile pictures you look like a member of the LRDG while Justin looks like a Roman. I suggest, members of the jury, that these are two different people.
Try to visualise Duncan
without the beard. Yes...yes...see it?
No-one's seen me without a beard since about 1980 :)
Isn't Aelian's Tactics a close parallel to Arrians...?
I've never looked at the origins, but something is echoing in my mind about one following the other, or common antecedent, or something?
Yes, Arrian's Tactics is very similar to Aelian's, though Arrian throws in a few more Roman examples, and has an extended section on Roman cavalry exercises.
Both are in turn similar to Asclepiodotus. It is commonly supposed that they share a common source, and this common source may be Poseidonius (now lost) - which might possibly in turn be based on a Tactics by Polybius (now lost), though the levels of speculation mount the further back you go.
Discussion of these possiilities here (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BYbWCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=To+use+or+not+to+use:+the+practical+and+historical+reliability+of+Asclepiodotus+%E2%80%98Philosophical%E2%80%99+tactical+manual%E2%80%99&source=bl&ots=cr42dmA2m4&sig=slzbKja8Haz3RznzIpWSYsT9akQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0oPDWz6LaAhXRC-wKHai4DPYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=To%20use%20or%20not%20to%20use%3A%20the%20practical%20and%20historical%20reliability%20of%20Asclepiodotus%20%E2%80%98Philosophical%E2%80%99%20tactical%20manual%E2%80%99&f=false), among other places:
Quote from: RichT on April 05, 2018, 08:49:13 AM
Discussion of these possiilities here (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BYbWCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=To+use+or+not+to+use:+the+practical+and+historical+reliability+of+Asclepiodotus+%E2%80%98Philosophical%E2%80%99+tactical+manual%E2%80%99&source=bl&ots=cr42dmA2m4&sig=slzbKja8Haz3RznzIpWSYsT9akQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0oPDWz6LaAhXRC-wKHai4DPYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=To%20use%20or%20not%20to%20use%3A%20the%20practical%20and%20historical%20reliability%20of%20Asclepiodotus%20%E2%80%98Philosophical%E2%80%99%20tactical%20manual%E2%80%99&f=false), among other places:
That was quite interesting, thanks for posting it 8)
Quote from: RichT on April 05, 2018, 08:49:13 AM
Yes, Arrian's Tactics is very similar to Aelian's, though Arrian throws in a few more Roman examples, and has an extended section on Roman cavalry exercises.
Both are in turn similar to Asclepiodotus. It is commonly supposed that they share a common source, and this common source may be Poseidonius (now lost) - which might possibly in turn be based on a Tactics by Polybius (now lost), though the levels of speculation mount the further back you go.
The lost works that these authors had access to are many and ancient. Aneas Tacticus for example, was a contemporary of Xenophon. Although we only have his work on defending and taking cities, the Poliokretika, we know he wrote other influential Tactica. You can read his existing work here: http://www.aeneastacticus.net/public_html/text.htm
Thayer's site has this fragment: "And upon the subject of tactics in Homer we have read Stratocles and Hermeas and Fronto the ex consul of our own time. Now the theory has been elaborated by Aeneas in detail (and he also composed a considerable number of military manuals, of which Cineas the Thessalian made an epitome), and by Pyrrhus of Epirus, who composed a treatise on tactics, and by Alexander his son, and by Clearchus."
Now Pyrrhos' views on tactics would be an interesting read. Fingers crossed for a papyrus, somewhere ...
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 06, 2018, 08:53:56 AM
Now Pyrrhos' views on tactics would be an interesting read. Fingers crossed for a papyrus, somewhere ...
Indeed. Although on the other hand, many might be disappointed, as I suspect (just a suspicion) that Pyrrhus' work would be very similar to Asclepiodotus, Aelian and Arrian. While there's a tendency to view the three As as philosophical, theoretical and dry, I suspect this is what a Tactica was supposed to look like - The Art of Tactics being about organisation and drill rather than deployment and manoeuvres, as we (as wargamers) might hope. (But an alternative view of the As is that they are a tradition of cut down, glossary-like summaries or accompaniments to the Tactics proper, which would themselves have been more interesting.)
I also suspect that the Tactica in the form we have them are very much a Macedonian/Hellenistic phenomenon, and whatever the Tactics of Aeneas might have been like, it wouldn't have been much like what we know from the As (perhaps being closer to the Siegecraft that survives, or the cavalry works of Xenophon). I don't know of any firm evidence for that though - it's just based on the link between 'the subject of tactics in Homer' and the supposedly Homeric origins of the Macedonian phalanx - which to be even more verbose about it comes from Diodorus 16.13.2 "Indeed he [Philip II] devised the compact order and the equipment of the phalanx, imitating the synaspismos of the warriors at Troy, and was the first to organize the Macedonian phalanx" and Polybius 18.29.5 (much discussed) "if only the [Macedonian] phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer - 'So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm...'", plus the references to Homer in the introductions of the As. So I suspect that there were no 'Hoplite Tactica' similar to the As but for the pre-Macedonian phalanx. I may be right, I may be wrong.
Among other reasons that Pyrrhos' work would be interesting is that it may be the first example, and origin of, the Macedonian/Hellenistic Tactica tradition. If Aineias' lost works are, as Rich suggests (probably rightly in my opinion) something in a different genre, then Pyrrhos seems to be the earliest writer mentioned working in this style. Which does bring the origin of the tradition back quite close to Alexander - Ailian at least specifically says that you will read here how Alexander organised his army.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 06, 2018, 10:16:21 AM
Among other reasons that Pyrrhos' work would be interesting is that it may be the first example, and origin of, the Macedonian/Hellenistic Tactica tradition. If Aineias' lost works are, as Rich suggests (probably rightly in my opinion) something in a different genre, then Pyrrhos seems to be the earliest writer mentioned working in this style. Which does bring the origin of the tradition back quite close to Alexander - Ailian at least specifically says that you will read here how Alexander organised his army.
This is also from Thayer's site, but I am unsure of the author, perhaps Arrian? "Aeneas defined it (sc. tactics) as the science of military movements, but the definition of Polybius was, that tactics was when a man took an unorganized crowd, arranged it, divided it into companies, grouped them together, and gave them a practical military training."
So I would agree that what Aeneas wrote would not be dissimilar to a distillation of the tactical writings of Xenophon. For example his "dinner drill" description of doubling, but with all of the fictional elements stripped away. Also, we must consider the audience. It is clear from Xenophon's description of Spartan drill that he expected his audience to be clueless. When I first did a Laconian countermarch in files I was amazed at how simple it was in execution. Literally 5 minutes of training required. This should not be surprising because most hoplite armies were not much more than crowds executing military movements compared to the military Polybius knew.
Quote from: PMBardunias on April 06, 2018, 05:58:14 PM
This is also from Thayer's site, but I am unsure of the author, perhaps Arrian? "Aeneas defined it (sc. tactics) as the science of military movements, but the definition of Polybius was, that tactics was when a man took an unorganized crowd, arranged it, divided it into companies, grouped them together, and gave them a practical military training."
That's Aelian (ch. 3).
Quote from: RichT on April 06, 2018, 07:01:45 PM
Quote from: PMBardunias on April 06, 2018, 05:58:14 PM
This is also from Thayer's site, but I am unsure of the author, perhaps Arrian? "Aeneas defined it (sc. tactics) as the science of military movements, but the definition of Polybius was, that tactics was when a man took an unorganized crowd, arranged it, divided it into companies, grouped them together, and gave them a practical military training."
That's Aelian (ch. 3).
Thanks Rich!