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History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Duncan Head on November 13, 2019, 08:54:39 PM

Title: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Duncan Head on November 13, 2019, 08:54:39 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/nov/13/climate-change-may-be-behind-fall-of-ancient-empire-say-researchers
Title: Re: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Jim Webster on November 14, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
Interesting
There is an argument that the collapse of the Western Roman Empire was assisted by climate change, and certainly the 'dark ages' were colder and wetter which limited fertility and meant that the West (Britain, France and Germany in our terms) couldn't support the large populations they had done
Title: Re: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Mark G on November 14, 2019, 06:59:41 AM
I gather the Roman link was more to do with a climatic change enabling new forms of disease to survive in Italy, particularly mosquito delivered strains .

Title: Re: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Justin Swanton on November 14, 2019, 08:08:44 AM
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 14, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
Interesting
There is an argument that the collapse of the Western Roman Empire was assisted by climate change, and certainly the 'dark ages' were colder and wetter which limited fertility and meant that the West (Britain, France and Germany in our terms) couldn't support the large populations they had done

Definitely. If you look at any movie set in the Dark Ages the weather is either raining or perpetually overcast and the was something wrong with the water - the peasants never washed.  ::)
Title: Re: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Erpingham on November 14, 2019, 08:32:27 AM
The key word in the article is probably "multi-factoral".  We are currently more atuned to the effects of climate change and therefore look out for them.  Unsurprisingly, we find the evidence previously missed.  The danger is to follow a simplistic cause and effect line, rather than say there were numerous stresses on the system, of which climate change was one, and eventually it failed. 

Title: Re: Climate change and the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Post by: Patrick Waterson on November 14, 2019, 06:46:48 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on November 14, 2019, 08:32:27 AM
The danger is to follow a simplistic cause and effect line, rather than say there were numerous stresses on the system, of which climate change was one, and eventually it failed.

True.  And if writing a headline for the general public, emphasis on simplicity and impact to the exclusion of accuracy and balance seems to be the guiding principle.

Relating climate change to crop failure to Assyrian collapse overlooks two key period features: 1) the key role played by the Scythians in bringing down the Assyrian Empire (initially its allies, they defected and joined its enemies) and 2) the flourishing of the Neo-Babylonian Empire and subsequently the Achaemenid Empire in this selfsame 'dry' period.

I am also hard put to think of any Biblical period power being brought low by crop failures.  They occurred (and occasionally entered recorded history) but empires seemed to fall for other reasons, top of the list being invasions, whether or not there was a famine.