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Macedonian phalanx: overarm, underarm or both?

Started by Justin Swanton, February 27, 2018, 06:28:42 PM

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Justin Swanton

#75
Quote from: Erpingham on March 04, 2018, 05:22:30 PM
Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 04, 2018, 04:22:12 PM
so much so that the rearmost pikes are actually held overarm,

I'm missing something.  All I can see are four ranks with pikes held low and then the rest with raised pikes.  I think from the ancient tacticians, several ranks behind four should be angling their pikes over the heads of the forward ranks.

I noticed that too. It's an imperfect world.

Quote from: Erpingham on March 04, 2018, 05:22:30 PMYou might be interested in this, which is the only reconstruction of a phalanx I can find not using a low carry.  These guys use a middle grip, with the sarissa couched under the armpit.  The shields seem to have become small circular stomach protectors not attached to the arm, perhaps suspended by a strap round the neck?  Doesn't seem very practical though.

Not in a million years. The shields need to be at least two feet wide.

Justin Swanton

#76
Quote from: RichT on March 04, 2018, 05:15:55 PM
Justin:
Quote
Does anyone know where I can get an online copy of Arrian's Tactics?

The Greek text is on Perseus: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a2008.01.0534

Already got that, but ta.

Quote from: RichT on March 04, 2018, 05:15:55 PMThere are photos (intermediate order only) in the Connolly article I quoted earlier but I'm currently without a scanner. My searches haven't turned up anything else. The Connolly hold is not dissimilar to the painting you show - the ranks hold the pikes slightly highter to pass over the pikes of the men ahead, though never so high as to be an underarm/shoulder hold.

Incidentally that painting seems to have the ranks behind the first with their shields on their backs - would would at least provide a use for the strap, but seems a bit unlikely, since if the front rank man went down, the second ranker would be shieldless. This reminds me of a bit of personal ancient history - I had big fights years ago over the fact that WRG 5th made pikemen shieldless. Never understood that.

If the first two ranks held their shields in their arms, that would leave the second man ready if the first man fell. The third and following ranks could shoulder their shields so as to raise their pikes higher and see what they are doing (though it's still possible for rank 2 - 4 to do that, enough to clear the men in front, whilst bearing their shields on their arms).

I'm theorising that everyone behind the first ranker could hold his shield with shoulder strap and keep his left arm behind the shield: it can move fairly freely whilst the shield, braced against it by the strap, offers protection.

willb

Polybius Histories 18.29
Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae is sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the distance between the two hands holding it, and to balance the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissae projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer1— ""So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm;
And man on man: and waving horse-hair plumes
In polished head-piece mingled, as they swayed
In order: in such serried rank they stood."
" And if my description is true and exact, it is clear that in front of each man of the front rank there will be five sarissae projecting to distances varying by a descending scale of two cubits.

Original Greek from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0233%3Abook%3D18%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1
ὅτι μὲν ἐχούσης τῆς φάλαγγος τὴν αὑτῆς ἰδιότητα καὶ δύναμιν οὐδὲν ἂν ὑποσταίη κατὰ πρόσωπον οὐδὲ μείναι τὴν ἔφοδον αὐτῆς, εὐχερὲς καταμαθεῖν ἐκ πολλῶν. ἐπεὶ γὰρ ὁ μὲν ἀνὴρ ἵσταται σὺν τοῖς ὅπλοις ἐν τρισὶ ποσὶ κατὰ τὰς ἐναγωνίους πυκνώσεις, τὸ δὲ τῶν σαρισῶν μέγεθός ἐστι κατὰ μὲν τὴν ἐξ ἀρχῆς ὑπόθεσιν ἑκκαίδεκα πηχῶν, κατὰ δὲ τὴν ἁρμογὴν τὴν πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν δεκατεττάρων, τούτων δὲ τοὺς τέτταρας ἀφαιρεῖ τὸ μεταξὺ τοῖν χεροῖν διάστημα καὶ τὸ κατόπιν σήκωμα τῆς προβολῆς, φανερὸν ὅτι τοὺς δέκα πήχεις προπίπτειν ἀνάγκη τὴν σάρισαν πρὸ τῶν σωμάτων ἑκάστου τῶν ὁπλιτῶν, ὅταν ἴῃ δι᾽ ἀμφοῖν τοῖν χεροῖν προβαλόμενος ἐπὶ τοὺς πολεμίους. ἐκ δὲ τούτου συμβαίνει τὰς μὲν τοῦ δευτέρου καὶ τρίτου καὶ τετάρτου πλεῖον, τὰς δὲ τοῦ πέμπτου ζυγοῦ σαρίσας δύο προπίπτειν πήχεις πρὸ τῶν πρωτοστατῶν, ἐχούσης τῆς φάλαγγος τὴν αὑτῆς ἰδιότητα καὶ πύκνωσιν κατ᾽ ἐπιστάτην καὶ κατὰ παραστάτην, ὡς Ὅμηρος ὑποδείκνυσιν ἐν τούτοις:

ἀσπὶς ἄρ᾽ ἀσπίδ᾽ ἔρειδε, κόρυς κόρυν, ἀνέρα δ᾽ ἀνήρ:

ψαῦον δ᾽ ἱππόκομοι κόρυθες λαμπροῖσι φάλοισι

νευόντων: ὣς πυκνοὶ ἐφέστασαν ἀλλήλοισι. τούτων δ᾽ ἀληθινῶς καὶ καλῶς λεγομένων,

Note, He specifically says lowers it with both hands, not lowered and raised or held up in an overarm position.

Prufrock

Quote from: willb on March 05, 2018, 02:27:37 PM
Note, He specifically says lowers it with both hands, not lowered and raised or held up in an overarm position.

If Justin is sure of his theory, this will probably soon be exposed as an incorrect translation ;D

Justin Swanton

#79
Quote from: Prufrock on March 05, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: willb on March 05, 2018, 02:27:37 PM
Note, He specifically says lowers it with both hands, not lowered and raised or held up in an overarm position.

If Justin is sure of his theory, this will probably soon be exposed as an incorrect translation ;D

Eahrmm...I checked the Greek and it clearly says: "He lowers it with both hands just to above the shoulder height of the man in front of him, holding it overarm, and isn't stupid enough to try and force it between the locked shields and project it underarm through that palm-sized space below."

Greek dictionaries really are handy.  ::)

Prufrock

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2018, 03:36:17 PM
Eahrmm...I checked the Greek and it clearly says: "He lowers it with both hands just to above the shoulder height of the man in front of him, holding it overarm, and isn't stupid enough to try and force it between the locked shields and project it underarm through that palm-sized space below."

Greek dictionaries really are handy.  ::)

;D Nicely played!

RichT

Ah if only...

But yes it is a tiny bit of an incorrect translation - at least you can't read much into the 'lowers' part - proballo means things like 'throw', 'throw forward', 'put forward' etc. Something similar to 'project' in English, I think. So sadly the height at which the pike is projected isn't specified.

'Probole' and 'synaspismos' are the two defining features of the Macedonian phalanx - 'projection [of spears]' and 'togetherness of shields'. Both at the same time - somehow!

Justin Swanton

#82
Here's a passage from Plutarch where I did do some trawling through the Greek (Aemilius Paulus 19):

      
γιγνομένης δὲ τῆς ἐφόδου παρῆν ὁ Αἰμίλιος, καὶ κατελάμβανεν ἤδη τοὺς ἐν τοῖς ἀγήμασι Μακεδόνας ἄκρας τάς σαρίσας προσερηρεικότας τοῖς θυρεοῖς τῶν Ῥωμαίων καὶ μὴ προσιεμένους εἰς ἐφικτὸν αὐτῶν τάς μαχαίρας, ἐπεὶ δὲ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων Μακεδόνων τάς τε πέλτας ἐξ ὤμου περισπασάντων καὶ ταῖς σαρίσαις ἀφ᾽ ἑνὸς συνθήματος κλιθείσαις ὑποστάντων τοὺς θυρεοφόρους εἶδε τήν τε ῥώμην τοῦ συνασπισμοῦ καὶ τήν τραχύτητα τῆς προβολῆς, ἔκπληξις αὐτὸν ἔσχε καὶ δέος, ὡς οὐδὲν ἰδόντα πώποτε θέαμα φοβερώτερον:

The online translation says this:

      
As the attack began, Aemilius came up and found that the Macedonian battalions had already planted the tips of their long spears in the shields of the Romans, who were thus prevented from reaching them with their swords. And when he saw that the rest of the Macedonian troops also were drawing their targets from their shoulders round in front of them, and with long spears sat at one level were withstanding his shield-bearing troops, and saw too the strength of their interlocked shields and the fierceness of their onset, amazement and fear took possession of him, and he felt that he had never seen a sight more fearful;

The translation however sucks (fancy that). Here is my partial reworking:

      
As the attack began, Aemilius came up and found that the Macedonian battalions had already planted the tips of their long spears in the shields of the Romans, who were thus prevented from reaching them with their swords. And when he saw that the rest of the Macedonian troops also were drawing their shields (pelta) from their shoulders round in front of them, and others on a prearranged signal sloping their sarissas to support those bearing the shields, and saw too the strength of their interlocked shields and the fierceness of their onset, amazement and fear took possession of him, and he felt that he had never seen a sight more fearful.

So what you have are the front rankers who have stuck their sarissas into the shields of the Romans. The next rank(s) bring their shields around to protect themselves (possibly because they are now the front line?) whilst the ranks further back lower their sarissas to support the new front rankers, now holding their shields before them.

This seems to suggest that since the frontmost sarissas were embedded in the Roman shields, their wielders fell back to let the next rank(s) inflict fresh damage with their own sarissas whilst the rearmost ranks - now in striking range of the Romans - brought their sarissas down in support.

Question: why did the pikemen have their shields slung over their backs in the first place? The only reason I can think of is that if you want to hold your pike high overarm so as to use it effectively, your shield gets in the way of your vision unless tucked behind you.

Notice how all this corresponds more to the sparring of the Landsknechts rather than the headlong charge of the Swiss.




Jim Webster

Read the section before the one you quoted

"These were succeeded by a third division, of picked men, native Macedonians, the choicest for courage and strength, in the prime of life, gleaming with gilt armor and scarlet coats.  As these were taking their places they were followed from the camp by the troops in phalanx called the Brazen Shields, so that the whole plain seemed alive with the flashing of steel and the glistening of brass; and the hills also with their shouts, as they cheered each otheron.  In this order they marched, and with such boldness and speed, that those that were first slain died at but two furlongs distance from the Roman camp."


The bit after the section you quoted also is useful

"The Romans not being able to make a breach in the phalanx, one Salius, a commander of the Pelignians, snatched the ensign of his company andthrew it amongst the enemies; on seeing which, the Pelignians (as amongst the Italians it is always thought the greatest breach of honor to abandona standard) rushed with great violence towards the place, where the conflict grew very fierce, and the slaughter terrible on both sides.  For these endeavored to cut the spears asunder with their swords, or to beat them back with their shields, or put them by with their hands; and, on the other side, the Macedonians held their long sarissas in both hands, and pierced those that came in their way quite through their armor, no shield or corslet being able to resist the force of that weapon.  The
Pelignians and Marrucinians were thrown headlong to the ground, having without consideration, with mere animal fury, rushed upon a certain death. 
Their first ranks being slain, those that were behind were forced to give back; it cannot be said they fled, but they retreated towards
Mount Olocrus.
When Aemilius saw this, Posidonius relates, he rent his clothes, some of his men being ready to fly, and the rest not willing to engage with a phalanx into which they could not hope to make any entrance, a sort of palisade, as it were, impregnable and unapproachable,with its close array of long spears everywhere meeting the assailant.

So obviously the phalanx was advancing and was pushing these people back
It doesn't sound at all like they were standing there sparring

Jim


Justin Swanton

Notice that the battle has three phases:

1. The Macedonians advance with speed toward the Romans, reaching a point two furlongs from the Roman camp.

2. The Macedonians fight the Romans. During this time nobody is doing any advancing or retreating. It's a straight slugfest with great casualties - Romans pitching against the phalangites who slaughter them.

3. The Romans, having lost their first line, fall back towards Mount Olocrus.

Jim Webster

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2018, 05:45:48 PM
Notice that the battle has three phases:

1. The Macedonians advance with speed toward the Romans, reaching a point two furlongs from the Roman camp.

2. The Macedonians fight the Romans. During this time nobody is doing any advancing or retreating. It's a straight slugfest with great casualties - Romans pitching against the phalangites who slaughter them.

3. The Romans, having lost their first line, fall back towards Mount Olocrus.

I don't read it like that. The Romans were forced to fall back, there was nothing voluntary about it

Justin Swanton

Quote from: Jim Webster on March 05, 2018, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2018, 05:45:48 PM
Notice that the battle has three phases:

1. The Macedonians advance with speed toward the Romans, reaching a point two furlongs from the Roman camp.

2. The Macedonians fight the Romans. During this time nobody is doing any advancing or retreating. It's a straight slugfest with great casualties - Romans pitching against the phalangites who slaughter them.

3. The Romans, having lost their first line, fall back towards Mount Olocrus.

I don't read it like that. The Romans were forced to fall back, there was nothing voluntary about it

Mmh, OK. but at least the passage doesn't look like a headlong charge by the phalanx; more like a steady advance which left the Romans time to try something before giving it up as a bad job and falling back.

RichT

Unfortunately your new translation sucks even more than the original.  :)

The θυρεοφόρους are Romans (thureophoroi, what a Greek calls the scutum-bearing Romans - cf. τοῖς θυρεοῖς τῶν Ῥωμαίων).

The people in front who are defeated in combat with the phalanx (specifically, the Peltasts) are the Marrucini and Paeligni - see Livy. There are several Macedonian phalanx units involved - at least, Peltasts, Chalcaspides, Leucaspides - and they have different degrees of success - the Peltasts defeat the Allied cohorts (Marrucini, Paeligni) and drive on at speed, the Chalcaspides and Leukaspides follow them up but are (apparently) more held up by the Roman legions (in the centre). (It can be argued the Leucaspides aren't part of the phalanx, but I'll assume for now they are).

Christopher Matthew has something sensible to say about καὶ ταῖς σαρίσαις ἀφ᾽ ἑνὸς συνθήματος κλιθείσαις though I forget what - will look it up tomorrow (but 'inclining their sarisas at one command' is roughly it).

A key question is who τῶν ἄλλων Μακεδόνων  - 'the other Macedonians' - are - other than who? Obviously, other than τοὺς ἐν τοῖς ἀγήμασι Μακεδόνας - 'those in the Macedonian agemas' - which seems to be Plutarch's slightly confused reference to the Peltasts (which had only one Agema). So 'the other Macedonians' are the Chalcaspides (and Leucaspides?). Not second rankers or anything like that.

willb

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2018, 03:36:17 PM
Quote from: Prufrock on March 05, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: willb on March 05, 2018, 02:27:37 PM
Note, He specifically says lowers it with both hands, not lowered and raised or held up in an overarm position.

If Justin is sure of his theory, this will probably soon be exposed as an incorrect translation ;D

Eahrmm...I checked the Greek and it clearly says: "He lowers it with both hands just to above the shoulder height of the man in front of him, holding it overarm, and isn't stupid enough to try and force it between the locked shields and project it underarm through that palm-sized space below."

Greek dictionaries really are handy.  ::)

Both the English and Greek texts are from the Perseus project.  If the English translation is incorrect, what is the full translation of the Greek text?

Prufrock

Quote from: willb on March 06, 2018, 04:36:14 AM
Both the English and Greek texts are from the Perseus project.  If the English translation is incorrect, what is the full translation of the Greek text?

This the LacusCurtius version (from the Loeb translation, I think): http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/18*.html

Quote29 1 That when the phalanx has its characteristic virtue and strength nothing can sustain its frontal attack or withstand the charge can easily be understood for many reasons. 2 For since, when it has closed up for action, each man, with his arms, occupies a space of •three feet in breadth, and the length of the pikes is according to the original design •sixteen cubits, but as adapted to actual need •fourteen cubits, from which we must subtract the distance between the bearer's two hands and the length of the weighted portion of the pike behind which serves to keep it couched — •four cubits in all — it is evident that it must extend •ten cubits beyond the body of each hoplite when he charges the enemy grasping it with both hands. 5 The consequence is that while the pikes of the second, third, and fourth ranks extend farther than those of the fifth rank, those of that rank extend •two cubits beyond the bodies of the men in the first rank, when the phalanx has its characteristic close order as regards both depth and breadth, as Homer expresses it in these verses:

Spear crowded spear,
Shield, helmet, man press'd helmet, man, and shield;
The hairy crests of their resplendent casques
Kiss'd close at every nod, so wedged they stood.1
7 This description is both true and fine, and it is evident that each man of the first rank must have  p151 the points of five pikes extending beyond him, each at a distance of •two cubits from the next.

30 1 From this we can easily conceive what is the nature and force of a charge by the whole phalanx when it is sixteen deep. 2 In this case those further back and the fifth rank cannot use their pikes so as to take any active part in the battle. 3 They therefore do not severally level their pikes, but hold them slanting up in the air over the shoulders of those in front of them, so as to protect the whole formation from above, keeping off by this serried mass of pikes all missiles which, passing over the heads of the first ranks, might fall on those immediately in front of and behind them. 4 But these men by the sheer pressure of their bodily weight in the charge add to its force, and it is quite impossible for the first ranks to face about.