Carthaginians in Spain 211-206 BC?

[rodge]

I'm embarking on writing an army list for Armati covering the Carthaginians in Spain against Scipio 211-206 BC.
So it's Livy, Polybius and Diodorus for starters (and I have Emery's 'Carthaginian Mercenaries: Soldiers of Fortune, Allied Conscripts, and Multi-Ethnic Armies in Antiquity')?
But...ever the lazy scholar...no doubt this road has been travelled by the membership many times so if anyone can shed any light on the composition and troop types of the Carthaginian forces that Scipio faced I'd be most grateful.

[Duncan Head]

There's this on Baecula in the light of the recent archaeological excavations. In Spanish, though.

Also this and this by the same author.

This one is in English, though, and touches on the idea that the Spanish adopted the oval shield from Carthage, which in turn asks the question, who in the Carthaginian army was using it, and when did they start. We may have discussed this here before, or it may have been on ancmed.

[Jim Webster]

I'm reading this at the moment

https://www.academia.edu/26292605/Ante_bella_punica_Western_Mediterranean_Military_Development_350-264_BC

Ante bella punica:
Western Mediterranean Military Development 350-264 BC
By Alastair Richard Lumsden

I do wonder whether the Carthaginians moved to a more 'Roman' or 'Western' mode of fighting under Hannibal's father who saw it in action on Sicily in the 1st Punic War.
But they might even have moved earlier

But evidence would be nice 

[Patrick Waterson]

There is some evidence that the Carthaginians were using legionary style formations (basically imitation legions) by 207-206 BC and may have begun doing so earlier.  In 212-211 BC they were still using allied Spanish tribes but by the time of Ilipa in 206 BC it looks as if most if not all of their Spanish were mercenaries in Carthaginian service and probably trained in Roman-style fighting (the Celtiberians they were using show clear signs of such training and organisation).

[rodge]

Thanks for the links and thoughts.
I'm currently working on a Dertosa scenario (earlier battle but there is a little bit of info on wiki to get rough troop types and proportions)  which we will try out this week.
I'll report back.

[rodge]

Can't do a full Dertosa report as Roy wants me to do one for Slingshot.
But the game went well (for the Carthaginians) who bested the Romans.
Main this is the Carthaginian list based on details on the wiki entry for the battle


Carthage, Battle of Dertosa 215 BC   H4 L4 BP2 Init 5
Core
1   COH   Libyans   K   7[1]1   1   Spears   12
2   FT   Libyans   K   6[1]1   1   Spears   8/16
1   HC   Libyan/Punic K   4[0]0   1   Various   10
2   LC   Numidians       2[0]0   1   Javelins   7/14
2   SI   Balearics       3[1]2   2   Slings   2/4
1   SI   African       3[1]2   2   Javelins   2
                     
Bonus
6   FT   Libyans   K   6[1]1   1   Spears   8/48
4   LHI   Spanish   K   5[1]2   1   Javelins and swords   9/36
4   LI   Spanish Tribals/Ligurians   4[1]2   1   Javelins and swords   7/28
2   WB   Ligurians   K   5[1]2   1   Various   6/12
4   SI   Spanish        3[1]2   2   Javelins   2/8
2   SI   Spanish       2[1]1   2   Slings   2/4
2   HC   Spanish    K   4[0]0   1   Various   10/20
2   LC   Numidian       2[0]0   1   Javelins   7/14
1   EL   Elephants   K   4[3]1   1   Various   10

And that paper you recommended Jim is excellent; answered lots of queries.

[Jim Webster]

At the moment I'm reading this :-)

https://www.uam.es/proyectosinv/equus/warmas/online/Quesada%20HWI%20Torun%20BNO%20.pdf

[Patrick Waterson]

FQS is usually informative although it is worth bearing in mind that he has an agenda to disprove the common (in Spain) fallacy that Spanish were always guerilla-style fighters and never fought proper battles if they could help it, and he centres his disproof on the Second Punic War in which the Spanish are often depicted as fighting like regulars.  He does not seem to consider that maybe the Carthaginians trained them to regularity (as did Sertorius over a century later), a point perhaps worth bearing in mind as one absorbs his articles.

[Jim Webster]

FQS is usually informative although it is worth bearing in mind that he has an agenda to disprove the common (in Spain) fallacy that Spanish were always guerilla-style fighters and never fought proper battles if they could help it, and he centres his disproof on the Second Punic War in which the Spanish are often depicted as fighting like regulars.  He does not seem to consider that maybe the Carthaginians trained them to regularity (as did Sertorius over a century later), a point perhaps worth bearing in mind as one absorbs his articles.

The Carthaginians had been using Iberians since at least  the Battle of Himera in 480BC and they'd been in Syracusian service for a long time before the Punic Wars.

[Patrick Waterson]

Absolutely correct.  What they seem to have done is drop moneybags in front of tribes and bring them along.  However, in the Second Punic War Polybius and Livy give the impression they increasingly switched to employing directly contingents which they enlisted and trained themselves (cf. |Livy's 'justa legio' encountered by Silanus in 207 BC, the Celtiberian force in Africa in 203 BC - each of these were legion-sized contingents and fought like Romans, exhibiting considerable staying-power).  Even Hasdrubal's new recruits at Ilipa held their own for hours against Scipio's (admittedly less numerous) veterans.

This suggests to me that from about 211 BC the Carthaginians were supplementing their hired tribal contingents with mercenaries trained, equipped and officered by themselves.  The battle examples FQS quotes, especially of Spanish fighting like Romans, come from this phase of the war (he does quote one major Roman battle against Spanish tribes, but seems not to notice the contrast between the performance of indigenous-tradition Spanish in this battle and those enlisted and trained by the Carthaginians in other engagements).

So it looks as if in the later part of the Second Punic War the Carthaginians were still using Iberians but were using them differently, or trying to.  (One can see two likely reasons for recruiting them directly into the Carthaginian army and  'regularising' them: 1) improve battlefield performance against legions; 2) diminish the tendency of Spanish tribes to take French leave when it suits them.)

Keeping this in mind may highlight the significance of a few points and finds in FQS' article.  (Or it may not - up to you, the gentle reader.)

[Jim Webster]

Absolutely correct.  What they seem to have done is drop moneybags in front of tribes and bring them along.   

I was impressed by the archaeological evidence which showed a change in equipment from about 250BC onwards. The dates are vague but the changes were there in the vase paintings etc from at least the time of Hastrubal in Spain, predating Hannibal. Given that it will take time for changes to be reflected in art I'm still intrigued by the idea that it was Hamilcar Barca who was the mover behind it

[Duncan Head]

This suggests to me that from about 211 BC the Carthaginians were supplementing their hired tribal contingents with mercenaries trained, equipped and officered by themselves.

I suspect they were doing that a lot earlier, but the problem was that Hannibal took all the competent Spanish mercenaries off to Italy, or sent them to Africa, leaving the Spanish generals with only African regulars.

[Patrick Waterson]

Given that it will take time for changes to be reflected in art I'm still intrigued by the idea that it was Hamilcar Barca who was the mover behind it

I would not be surprised.  Given his general astuteness, I would not be surprised if he accelerated the process of representation by commissioning some vases featuring the new equipment as presents for Spanish chieftains - or maybe that is my imagination running away with me.

This suggests to me that from about 211 BC the Carthaginians were supplementing their hired tribal contingents with mercenaries trained, equipped and officered by themselves.

I suspect they were doing that a lot earlier, but the problem was that Hannibal took all the competent Spanish mercenaries off to Italy, or sent them to Africa, leaving the Spanish generals with only African regulars.

Could well be, given that no tribal leaders are mentioned as part of Hannibal's army.  Re-equipping them Roman style would have started at some point after Cannae, once Hannibal's adoption of Roman ways had been shown to be effective.  I suspect Hasdrubal Barca of making an early (215 BC) start on this and Hasdrubal Gisgo a late one.

[PMBardunias]

French leave

I learn so much from you guys, even beyond ancient warfare 

[rodge]

So...to the thorny question of Carthaginian shields.
By 215 BCE are the Libyan heavy infantry in Spain carrying a thureos?