Horse charging an uninterupted line of infantry by accident during some movie shot.
https://youtu.be/LmjEKlmzvt8?t=135
There is a nice example of how not to deliver a cavalry charge in here. Nicely dressed extras look spectacular but seem to have set off to gallop a couple of hundred yards out, leading to the unit having all the cohesion of fox hunt the time it gets anywhere near the enemy.
I wasn't particularly impressed by the extras in armour - they didn't even give an impression of intending to offer resistance to the extras on horses. It reminded me of watching a demonstration of staged fighting by two "historical demonstrators", whose first point made was, to be convincing, it must look to the audience you are trying to kill each other, even though you've done everything possible to make it safe.
The whole point was that horses can and are willing to charge a solid mass of people (as the infantry line extras were really having an unbroken line over there with a depth of two or maybe even three ranks)
Indeed - a point made each time we discuss this. People who approach horses versus bodies of troops as an issue of animal psychology are missing the not insignificant role of the rider, who in the very short time available can carry out a rather more nuanced risk assessment than the horse. The horse being conditioned to obey the rider, the rider's actions based on this are rather significant.
This was not an accident. Notice that the man run over is standing well in front of the line and actually in front of a gap in the line that the hose runs through. A horse will surely run over a single man, so this is not so impressive.
That is not to say that you can't train a horse to charge a line, nor that you cannot give the horse little option by charging knee to knee. But these horses did not charge a solid line of men, nor were they really trained to.
What I found odd is the video's assertion that the appropriate formation to meet horse in is the line. Forming square or simply as a mass are the viable options with no flank support.
The point of forming square is that the cavalry, who should be starting more like half a KM away at a walk, can pretty easily pop over to the end of the line.
Square is effectively a line without an end, in this equation, and one where you either can't see what's happening because it's behind you, or you know you're going to have to push through the guys behind you before you get out if you run.
I've done a bit of searching - this clip is from the filming of a Netflix movie called 'The King'. The battle depicted is supposed to be Agincourt.
See the battle sequence in full here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5d_BuI-KbA
The stuntman getting splatted by the horse is at about 2:22 (not an accident). This was filmed in Hungary but the stuntman is British and is called George Hayes - here's another angle:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=244977623459442
The whole thing looks to be a very silly film, and makes me despair once again for the depiction of Ancient/Medieval warfare on film. Still it has its moments. I note the shooting on command by the archers.
For me the main lesson from this is - don't use film depictions of warfare to draw any conclusions about real warfare. But yes it does demonstrate (once again) that a (stunt) horse can and will knock over a (stunt) man, in the right circumstances (which has not to my knowledge ever been in doubt).
Good Grief, did they even have an historical advisor on this one??????
To answer my own question amongst the huge crew there is a credit for:
H.F. Doherty ... medieval advisor (as Dr Hugh Doherty)
Poor man probably didn't have a chance against all the multitudinous effects crew and directors etc. after dramatic scenes.
I think the stuntman's reaction and struggle to get up after the hit as viewed on the different angle shot was pretty genuine ;D
If I understand correctly it was also a trained stunt horse.
Quite a few of the defenders get knocked over, but it's not clear to me how many of those are due to the horse, or whether they're actually due to the ten pin bowling effect of the stuntman being knocked over. Can anyone else see better?
In the last clip that RT posted you can see the effect of charging home, in that the horsemen end up surrounded by infantry. Including one where there's a guy trying to bash a rider on the back with a spear!
As I understand it, the chief function of a historical advisor to a movie is to have their name and qualifications in the credits, to lend an air of credibility. They typically have very little, if any, input to what happens on screen.
The frontal shot (in the OP) is clearer that the secondary knockdowns are mostly those hit by George (the man, not the horse) when he is knocked back. Everyone else gets out of the way to leave a lane for the horse to run through. Where such a lane isn't left, the horses end up stopped and surrounded.
As usual with film stunts, re-enactments etc, the big problem trying to learn anything from this is the lack of weapons, and of lethal force. This shot was undoubtedly very carefully set up and designed so as not to be lethal, or even harmful, to man or horse. Real cavalry charges, I believe, did not operate on these principles.
In an American Civil War re-enactment years ago, a line of infantry lined up in an open field preparing to receive a cavalry charge (although cavalry charges against infantry were rare during the ACW). In this demonstration, the line of infantry recruits knew that the horsemen would stop short of their line and veer off. The horsemen, likewise, were ordered to stop short and veer away from the infantry before closing. The horsemen knew with certainty that there would be no contact. Given these assurances, the infantry were ordered to stand firm since there was no risk of harm.
Well, as the cavalry progressed from walk to trot to canter, the distance closed and the ground shook. The infantry began to act nervously. As the distance continued to close, the horsemen picked up speed. There was a lot of nervous fidgeting among the ranks. A few infantry broke ranks and fell back. As the cavalry continued coming on, the entire line collapsed with infantry streaming for the rear.
As choreographed, the cavalry pulled up short, laughing at the sight of chaos to their front.
My point? Being able to remain resolute as infantry while being charged by cavalry takes courage (or at least enough peer pressure to keep one in position). Even under test conditions, as on this day, the infantry could not pass muster.
not quite the same as a full charge but here is a handful of horse charging a very large crowd in real time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhUTF4hOp8
Quote from: Imperial Dave on March 07, 2023, 06:17:53 PMnot quite the same as a full charge but here is a handful of horse charging a very large crowd in real time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhUTF4hOp8
Yes that does seem to back Jon's ACW example but police horses are quite big compared to ancient horses, and in neither case did they have big spears - the hoplites of ancient Greece and similar would possibly have had experience of things like boar hunting and would have been made of sterner stuff as a consequence. Also the volunteers/demonstrators will not be anywhere near as worried about losing face/dignitas.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on March 07, 2023, 06:17:53 PMnot quite the same as a full charge but here is a handful of horse charging a very large crowd in real time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhUTF4hOp8
This is a good example of how I think such charges actually occurred. If the people make room the horses continue on, if they stand, then the horses do not charge in hard, but stop and wade into the crowd- you can see this on many riot videos. My problem with the hard charge of cavalry is the same I have with the hard running charge of hoplites directly into othismos- your men get tangled with the fallen foes and go down, horses would break legs. I have seen the former for myself and been told that horsemen fear even fake charges due to the possibilty of horses tripping.
I have been charged by just 3 horses at the gallop, and definitely wanted to run!
Quote from: RichT on March 07, 2023, 12:20:33 PMThe whole thing looks to be a very silly film, and makes me despair once again for the depiction of Ancient/Medieval warfare on film. Still it has its moments. I note the shooting on command by the archers.
There is one bright light in this flick. The combat in harness is fairly realistic in that they almost always end up on the ground engaged in armizare and stabbing each other in the joints with rondels.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on March 07, 2023, 06:17:53 PMnot quite the same as a full charge but here is a handful of horse charging a very large crowd in real time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhUTF4hOp8
Only a reporter would describe that as 'a full on charge'
Provided you treat the film The King as fantasy, it's OK. It does make Shakespeare's version seem the height of historical accuracy. In fact, it is more a new story told with Shakespeare's characters than anything else. Some nice Tod Todeleschi weaponry in use though as hero pieces - that is historically accurate.
Hugh Doherty is a real Early Medieval historian (not to be confused with paul Doherty, the historical novelist).
QuoteI have been charged by just 3 horses at the gallop, and definitely wanted to run!
I was charged once in the SK, at the "round trot" they favoured. Although surprised (they were our cavalry) we rapidly formed "hedgehog" and they veered off, sadly straight through our camp followers, who were knocked flat and needed attention from the St John's ambulance. I think the lesson really is the behaviour of amateur riders on untrained horses is probably not a good guide to how the professionals would perform :) Would we have reacted the same if we didn't know that, short of the blundering incompetence of SK cavalry of the time, we were in no real danger? Don't know.
I think by this stage the film footage has been well chewed over (sorry I missed that live) but the point on what the other extras other than George and the rider do is probably also what they are supposed to do rather than some instinctive reaction by men and animals.
Quote from: Erpingham on March 08, 2023, 10:15:53 AMQuoteI have been charged by just 3 horses at the gallop, and definitely wanted to run!
I was charged once in the SK, at the "round trot" they favoured. Although surprised (they were our cavalry) we rapidly formed "hedgehog" and they veered off, sadly straight through our camp followers, who were knocked flat
ouch
Quote from: Erpingham on March 08, 2023, 10:15:53 AMQuoteI have been charged by just 3 horses at the gallop, and definitely wanted to run!
I was charged once in the SK, at the "round trot" they favoured. Although surprised (they were our cavalry) we rapidly formed "hedgehog" and they veered off, sadly straight through our camp followers, who were knocked flat and needed attention from the St John's ambulance. I think the lesson really is the behaviour of amateur riders on untrained horses is probably not a good guide to how the professionals would perform :) Would we have reacted the same if we didn't know that, short of the blundering incompetence of SK cavalry of the time, we were in no real danger? Don't know.
I think by this stage the film footage has been well chewed over (sorry I missed that live) but the point on what the other extras other than George and the rider do is probably also what they are supposed to do rather than some instinctive reaction by men and animals.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on March 08, 2023, 01:32:28 PMQuote from: Erpingham on March 08, 2023, 10:15:53 AMQuoteI have been charged by just 3 horses at the gallop, and definitely wanted to run!
I was charged once in the SK, at the "round trot" they favoured. Although surprised (they were our cavalry) we rapidly formed "hedgehog" and they veered off, sadly straight through our camp followers, who were knocked flat
ouch
Yes, when Justin was collecting his videos to prove horses would collide with humans, I just had to recall the spectacle of poor women being flattened by a charging Brigadier Peter Young (for it was he who led the charge). Fortunately, the two women were well enough to return to the ranks that evening.