Does anyone use 2mm scale? How do you like it? What base size do you use for them?
HR -
Do not use 2mm figures (or any figures, actually) but I did happen across an article in one of the monthly glossies wherein 2mm figures were used for an ECW campaign.
In general, the table looked spectacular. The formations were identifiable, but it seemed to me that a magnifying glass or some other visual aide might be required to assist in play.
Not sure if there are companies that produce 2mm ancients, though. If there are any, how tiny would their elephants be?
Cost would be reasonable, I imagine. Perhaps one could do Cannae or some other major battle on a 1-to-1 scale? The mind reels. And the eyes water.
Chris
Irregular Miniatures make 2mm ancients. There are pics in the 2mm section of their website, including some of their elephants and chariots.
See
http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/
Scroll to bottom of the home page to click on the 2mm section. Excellent customer service, by the way.
Also, I believe Magister Militum may make a 3mm range.
I have 2mm Irregular Roman republic and Carthaginians which I did to play games on a gridded board about the size of a chess board. Haven't used them for years
2mm is ok for big visual battles and painting is relatively straight forward. Cant tell what weapons and armour they are carrying but formations easy enough to spot. I use Irregular miniatures too
Just received some trial strips of 2mm and 3mm. Both look nice. There's quite a noticeable difference between the 2 scales, kind of comparable to the difference between 28mm and 1/72s.
Painted up 1-strip of 2mm ECW cavalry and am rather taken with how they've turned out....
Quote from: eques on August 03, 2017, 08:48:13 AM
Just received some trial strips of 2mm and 3mm. Both look nice. There's quite a noticeable difference between the 2 scales, kind of comparable to the difference between 28mm and 1/72s.
Painted up 1-strip of 2mm ECW cavalry and am rather taken with how they've turned out....
these things are very much down to personal taste. If you like them, can find a place for them in your imagination, then they're for you :-)
Started using 2mm maybe 10-15 year back. Dead easy to paint and store. Arimes can look like armies and, this was the clincher, figures and terrain can almost be in scale. To my mind 16 figures and 8 trees on a 6" square do not make troops hiding in a forest. I'll say nothing about pikes being longer than the river they're crossing is wide :D
The standard 6 ft by 4 ft wargames table is nearly 1 mile wide for 2mm figures,very handy if like me figure scale Vs ground scale a no-no.
For basing I took a happy medium of 4.5 ft by 7.5 ft for Legionaries, 240 Legionaries on 60 x 15 mm bases are 1/2 a cohort at 1:1. I kept that 1:1 figure ratio for everything so Hoplites are in 8 ranks, pike in 32 ranks. Irregular foot are 300 - 400 strong.
Some folks moan they can't tell what's what but I'm sure many generals said the same thing while squinting through the rain at the enemy 1/4 mile away. A touch of reality thrown in for free.
I can field every unit Agricola had for his invasion of Scotland at 1:1 but for a taster here's a Legion at 1:2 on a 3 ft board.
(http://i.imgur.com/gNE7yuD.jpg)
Very nice indeed and the visual aspect is always going to be a real winner when using 2mm. Also painting as said previously is easier and quicker.....hmmm time.to get my 2mm stuff out again to check what I have...Persians and Greeks
Cheers Dave
When I get back from Claymore I'll dig out the Hoplites and Pikemen,get some photos up. Got another 8 army packs from eBay the other week so hope I don't see more in the bring n buy today :D
Definitely got me thinking about 2mm now.....BBDBA would look and feel perfect to me for this....just the basing configuration to work out...
Quote from: Holly on August 06, 2017, 08:13:08 AM
Definitely got me thinking about 2mm now.....BBDBA would look and feel perfect to me for this....just the basing configuration to work out...
Mine are done on 40mm bases which seem to look well enough
40mm is a right handy size to use.This page never fails to impress me.
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/bobsgames/tiny_warriors.htm
I only used 60mm because of the daft 1:1 idea :) One of those just because you can/doesn't mean you should moments ::)
The Irregular Miniatures strips seem to be designed to fit on 30mm bases? Ie would be too long or too short for 2
40mm.
Admittedly I am easily pleased but really like the way my trial strips have painted up and look on the base.
In addition to some more ECW stuff I have now ordered some late Roman figures with a view to Dux Bellorum (a rule set normally hampered by being light on figures on the tabletop)
3mm painting up well too. Would like to make a Pontic army at some point.
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 06, 2017, 09:38:13 AM
40mm is a right handy size to use.This page never fails to impress me.
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/bobsgames/tiny_warriors.htm
I only used 60mm because of the daft 1:1 idea :) One of those just because you can/doesn't mean you should moments ::)
they really do look good dont they?
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 06, 2017, 09:38:13 AM
40mm is a right handy size to use...
I only used 60mm because of the daft 1:1 idea :) One of those just because you can/doesn't mean you should moments ::)
David
Actually a 60mm wide basing scheme is not completely daft. A lot of rules covering our period use 60mm wide bases for 25/28mm figures. There is nothing stopping you using the 2mm figures and using the 25/28mm ground scale. From memory those I have where this would probably work include DBM, DBMM, FoG:AM (and FoG:R's very early battles), L'ADLG, and Poleaxed. There are likely others I can't recall just now.
Tim
Quote from: Tim on August 12, 2017, 07:35:48 AM
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 06, 2017, 09:38:13 AM
40mm is a right handy size to use...
I only used 60mm because of the daft 1:1 idea :) One of those just because you can/doesn't mean you should moments ::)
David
Actually a 60mm wide basing scheme is not completely daft. A lot of rules covering our period use 60mm wide bases for 25/28mm figures. There is nothing stopping you using the 2mm figures and using the 25/28mm ground scale. From memory those I have where this would probably work include DBM, DBMM, FoG:AM (and FoG:R's very early battles), L'ADLG, and Poleaxed. There are likely others I can't recall just now.
Tim
Impetus would work as well. Especially as Impetus is moving over to a measuring scale based on the base frontage. So as long as both sides have the same sized bases all is well 8)
David, see, we are now moving forward on this topic. Don't let gravity or friction slow your progress.
Quote from: Tim on August 12, 2017, 07:35:48 AM
Actually a 60mm wide basing scheme is not completely daft. A lot of rules covering our period use 60mm wide bases for 25/28mm figures. There is nothing stopping you using the 2mm figures and using the 25/28mm ground scale. From memory those I have where this would probably work include DBM, DBMM, FoG:AM (and FoG:R's very early battles), L'ADLG, and Poleaxed. There are likely others I can't recall just now.
I've been tempted to do precisely this for DBMM. If you take a pace as 0.75 m, a 60mm basewidth (80 scale paces) works out to a ground scale of 1:1000, which is quite close to the figure scale (approx 1:900 for 2mm figures). If the figures are of realistic bulk compared to their height, it should be possible to use historical numbers and figures (as far as is known).
It's not the 60mm part that's daft, more the 1:1 bit. I painted and based 21 bases per paper strength Legion so I need at least 4 foot of table top just for the Legionaries.
This eejit then took it further and raised 4 Legions :o Total overkill
Aye I can just use 1 base per Cohort, the 1:2 figure ratio still sits easier with me but I've loads of bases will never see the table.
Only way that'll happen is I decant to the spare room and set up a 3M wide table in the main bedroom ::)
I blame the micro tank folk for my woes ;D At shows I see tanks trundling through streets in 1/300,looks great. Turn around and see 3 cavalry figures towering over the hill they're deployed on ???
Andreas
That was exactly my thinking,I just took things too far :D
If I'd stuck to an army list instead of reported numbers I'd have saved myself time and money.
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 12, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
.... I painted and based 21 bases per paper strength Legion so I need at least 4 foot of table top just for the Legionaries.
This eejit then took it further and raised 4 Legions :o Total overkill
...
Only way that'll happen is I decant to the spare room and set up a 3M wide table in the main bedroom ::)
...
All seems very logical to me. When do you reckon the main bedroom will be ready...?
(You would deploy the legions double depth as was done in some of the battles of the Roman Civil Wars and that way you could get all 4 legions with allies/auxillia on a 6' x 4', 2 legions per side - on the 3M table you could even have all 4 and room for some Barbarians...)
Tim
Such drastic action may not be needed ;D
Recently moved 24 bass guitars out of the living room,with strategic placement of the 6ft double bass a 3M table could fit :)
Just the moggie issue to contend with,he's claimed the living room :(
I believe Ancient Roman armies used an animal's entrails as part of the Augury, so that solves the moggie problem... 8)
Ick.......
Quote from: Tim on August 12, 2017, 01:04:29 PM
I believe Ancient Roman armies used an animal's entrails as part of the Augury, so that solves the moggie problem... 8)
If this works, one of our more distinguished mediaeval specialists might develop a sudden interest in the Roman period ... ("You don't mind if I borrow the
small evil quadruped cat, do you, dear?")
LOL!
just had a random thought.....how do you represent an augury on 2mm scale!
Quote from: Holly on August 13, 2017, 09:04:04 AM
just had a random thought.....how do you represent an augury on 2mm scale!
Think of yourself as the deity ... :)
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on August 13, 2017, 09:36:31 AM
Quote from: Holly on August 13, 2017, 09:04:04 AM
just had a random thought.....how do you represent an augury on 2mm scale!
Think of yourself as the deity ... :)
oh no, that wont do......maybe a flock of sheep or herd of goats clustered around a stone altar with some flunkies and the master of ceremonies all in loving 2mm
I foresee a rise in the popularity of 2mm sheep.
That said, from a deity's point of view, separating 2mm sheep from 2mm goats is going to be even more of a challenge than dealing with the full-sized versions.
easy....the sheep are the ones being chased by a mob of Welshmen.....
Thus demonstrating the hidden reason for the creation of Welshmen.
One thought about 2mm armies: do they fit more happily on 'realistic' terrain? One of the problems of 25mm was that nice, realistic-looking, sloping papier-mache hills would occasionally create their own ski-runs or avalanches when 25mm figures were deployed on them. Getting the figures to stay on the slope could be a challenge. 2mm figures with their low centres of gravity presumably do not have this problem.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on August 14, 2017, 09:18:25 AM
Thus demonstrating the hidden reason for the creation of Welshmen.
One thought about 2mm armies: do they fit more happily on 'realistic' terrain? One of the problems of 25mm was that nice, realistic-looking, sloping papier-mache hills would occasionally create their own ski-runs or avalanches when 25mm figures were deployed on them. Getting the figures to stay on the slope could be a challenge. 2mm figures with their low centres of gravity presumably do not have this problem.
agreed and relative scale of hills/trees/building etc vs figures becomes visually much more realistic
Quote from: Holly on August 14, 2017, 09:58:32 AM
agreed and relative scale of hills/trees/building etc vs figures becomes visually much more realistic
So does the painting. Imagine you're at a football match and you look across at the rival fans,they're only maybe 200-300 yards away. I only really see pink blobs for faces and bits of colour,could have swords instead of cups of bovril for all I know :)
The terrain thing is good as I don't reckon we can grasp it's importance enough. Long time back I suggested to Phil Barker he should have rivers instead of ploughed fields (?) as his compulsory terrain,how they limit deployment and can secure flanks was what I was thinking. I couldn't see them having much effect in the sparsely populated 1st Cent UK. PB as is his wont gave me an example 1400 years later to back up his thoughts and that was that ;D
Then he told me " To most wargamers a river's just a piece of blue cardboard." :o Of course he was right. How often do we think " I'll just get those fellas to slip past that 6" x 4" forest and hit the enemy from behind.". Hard to keep perspective when your cavalry loom taller than a house ;D
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 14, 2017, 10:49:09 PM
Hard to keep perspective when your cavalry loom taller than a house ;D
exactly and its something that has bugged me forever and a day.......
I think I really will go back to 2mm seriously as a project but look at it holistically ie:
the armies (2 matching pair with add on possibilities)
the figure/men representation ratio
the terrain
the size of the board and thus the playing/operational size
the base/element size
the rules!
answers on a postcard...
Quote from: Holly on August 15, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: kodiakblair on August 14, 2017, 10:49:09 PM
Hard to keep perspective when your cavalry loom taller than a house ;D
exactly and its something that has bugged me forever and a day.......
I think I really will go back to 2mm seriously as a project but look at it holistically ie:
the armies (2 matching pair with add on possibilities)
the figure/men representation ratio
the terrain
the size of the board and thus the playing/operational size
the base/element size
the rules!
answers on a postcard...
I think holistically is the way forward. I think it's a project with two armies, terrain, and perhaps even a campaign background to tie everything together.
You could even fit in a naval aspect to it as well 8)
oh gawd no.........not the navy lark!
Had to look up the meaning of "holistically" ;) I'll go back to my original intent.
Agricola's invasion of Scotland.
Have all the figures for both sides.
For ease on the tabletop I'll go 2:1 figure/man ratio
I'll try and keep terrain close to both the scale and figure ratio i.e 1mm = 2 yards
Board size really can't go over 8ft by 6ft. The board can't stay built up indefinitely so I'll need to resolve things that day.
Bases/elements all have 60mm fronts. The Legionaries are 15mm deep but that's OK as most rules ignore base depth these days.
Rules is easy. Michael Collins(one man band company Grand Manoeuvres) kindly sent me the playtest of his Bella Contra Barbaros,which I never got time to test :-\ When it went on sale in April I promised him I'd find the time. That time has come ;)
Go ahead and good luck. Do tell us how it works out. :)
sounds like a good exercise and reasonable parameters. If I had the room I would get a huge table but realise that for me anyway, 6x4 is about the limit
Used the Irregular Miniatures figures just as is with no basing. Designed it as a game that could be played on a fold-out chess board in the back of a car whilst driving to shows and competitions. Is there no depths to which I'll stoop to get in another game?
Quote from: stevenneate on August 21, 2017, 03:33:32 PM
Used the Irregular Miniatures figures just as is with no basing. Designed it as a game that could be played on a fold-out chess board in the back of a car whilst driving to shows and competitions. Is there no depths to which I'll stoop to get in another game?
I was thinking of making a command and colours travel set with them!
My clubmate has set up a "2mm & small scale" FaceBook group here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1639662269377760/?notif_t=group_added_to_group¬if_id=1502918035427461
Thanks for the link Harry! :)
Aye cheers for the link. Hope I get approved,might be difficult if it's weighed against other FB posts since mine are all bass related.
Going back to the "hollystic view" idea, then probably the best place to start with is the getting the scale right.
If 2mm equals 6ft vertically then it must also do the same horizontally if everything is to be relative, but this infers a 1:1 man:figure ratio which might be too much even at 2mm scale.
On the assumption that the ratio isn't 1:1 then the ground / vertical scales will be different.
If I was going to start my rules again I'd certainly work on getting the ground scale right first.
Quote from: dwkay57 on September 05, 2017, 01:25:52 PM
Going back to the "hollystic view" idea, then probably the best place to start with is the getting the scale right.
If 2mm equals 6ft vertically then it must also do the same horizontally if everything is to be relative, but this infers a 1:1 man:figure ratio which might be too much even at 2mm scale.
On the assumption that the ratio isn't 1:1 then the ground / vertical scales will be different.
If I was going to start my rules again I'd certainly work on getting the ground scale right first.
I must say I never really bother with such calculations when reading or writing rules - I just go with whether it looks roughly right on the table (or rather it doesn't look wrong)
Quote from: eques on September 05, 2017, 05:48:15 PM
Quote from: dwkay57 on September 05, 2017, 01:25:52 PM
Going back to the "hollystic view" idea, then probably the best place to start with is the getting the scale right.
If 2mm equals 6ft vertically then it must also do the same horizontally if everything is to be relative, but this infers a 1:1 man:figure ratio which might be too much even at 2mm scale.
On the assumption that the ratio isn't 1:1 then the ground / vertical scales will be different.
If I was going to start my rules again I'd certainly work on getting the ground scale right first.
I must say I never really bother with such calculations when reading or writing rules - I just go with whether it looks roughly right on the table (or rather it doesn't look wrong)
phew....not just me then! ;D
Quote from: dwkay57 on September 05, 2017, 01:25:52 PM
Going back to the "hollystic view" idea, then probably the best place to start with is the getting the scale right.
If 2mm equals 6ft vertically then it must also do the same horizontally if everything is to be relative, but this infers a 1:1 man:figure ratio which might be too much even at 2mm scale.
On the assumption that the ratio isn't 1:1 then the ground / vertical scales will be different.
If I was going to start my rules again I'd certainly work on getting the ground scale right first.
1:1 figure ratio can be a big ask but it's within reach. I put a photo up on the recent 2mm FB page. It was 2 Legions of 4800 each, 8000 Auxilia,2 Cohort of light infantry and 2 Cohort of archers. 2 Ala of light horse and 4 Ala of heavy horse completed the force.Not cheap I'm afraid.
On this 2M x 1M table there was still plenty of room :)
no, not cheap but very impressive David :) Is 2mm a unintended money sinkhole?! 8)
Quote from: Holly on September 06, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
no, not cheap but very impressive David :) Is 2mm a unintended money sinkhole?! 8)
You got that right Dave ;-) My idea for a travel DBA set kinda got out of control.
Quote from: kodiakblair on September 06, 2017, 08:06:23 AM
Quote from: Holly on September 06, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
no, not cheap but very impressive David :) Is 2mm a unintended money sinkhole?! 8)
You got that right Dave ;-) My idea for a travel DBA set kinda got out of control.
easily done ;D
Quote from: Holly on September 06, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
no, not cheap but very impressive David :) Is 2mm a unintended money sinkhole?! 8)
how does it compare to guitars ;)
Compared to guitars its cheaper and easier to store. Don't know what happened with the guitars,woke one morning and they'd overrun the house ;D