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We know of the Athenians running into battle with the Persians at Marathon; the Tegeans, followed by the Spartans, running to engage the Persians at Plataea; Clearchus having his men run at the Cilicians in the parade at Tarsus and then against their opponents at Cunaxa.  Is there any evidence of Greek hoplites running into engagement against other Greek hoplites?

I suspect the question is why would they?  If we ignore the theatrics of the Tarsus parade, then all the other instances of which I can think - adding in the various incidents during the Anabasis - are when you want to cover the beaten ground as quickly as possible against an enemy with good archery, you are getting annoyed by pesky skirmishers, or you want to get terrain advantage before the other chap does.

If up against other hoplites, on 99% of occasions you are probably putting a premium on good order.  Running probably only comes into it when chasing fleeing opponents, or perhaps a short dash by subunits to exploit a gap that has appeared?

Richard T is your man here. He gives this some space in his Greek Phalanx book. I might have now remembered but I am sure he mentions the Spartans sacrificing (a goat?) when already quite close to the enemy and walking into contact.

I think that Spartans made a feature of orderly approach and walking into contact, if only because it gave the other side a chance to run away 

But Brasidas at Amphipolis probably led his men at a run
Thuc. 5.10


Brasidas at the same time, having spied his opportunity and that the army of the Athenians removed, said to those about him and the rest: 'These men stay not for us; it is apparent by the wagging of their spears and of their heads; for where such motion is, they use not to stay for the charge of the enemy; [6] therefore open me some body the gates appointed and let us boldly and speedily sally forth upon them.' Then he went out himself at the gate towards the trench, and which was the first gate of the long wall, which then was standing; and at high speed took the straight way,

Thanks for that on Brasidas at Amphipolis, I should have remembered that one.  Still, it is a special case where he could see that the Athenians were already moving away, so no indication that they might ever attempt this against a steady line.

I've asked the question to help me think through how to write rules for hoplites to engage with Sparabara.  As they stand, the Sparabara's archery seems to be giving them too much of an edge, so I thought to use a 'run' special rule for the hoplites to offset this but it seems that this cannot be a general rule.  Maybe I need to rethink the archery side a bit.

Somewhere on the forum there are some comments from Paul Bardunias about the value of hoplites running at each other. IIRC, he thinks it's a disadvantage and even if hoplites moved fast to cross ground, they slowed in order to move to spear-fencing (dorytismos?) range.

Quote from: Keraunos on August 13, 2025, 10:17:21 AMAs they stand, the Sparabara's archery seems to be giving them too much of an edge, so I thought to use a 'run' special rule for the hoplites to offset this but it seems that this cannot be a general rule.  Maybe I need to rethink the archery side a bit.

As in real life, perhaps simply a question of balance?  If the hoplites enjoy a basic (but not excessive) advantage vs sparabara troops, then a minor penalty for some disorder after running to contact (but reducing risk from archery) is a legitimate decision for the Greek player.

Running should always be an option, but against fellow hoplites, the judgement then becomes one of whether the minor penalty for disorder is worth it; in wargames terms, does Brasidas judge it worthwhile versus an opponent who is "shaken" or otherwise tactically disadvantaged?

QuoteNow as the opposing armies were coming together, there was deep silence for a time in both lines; but when they were distant from one another about a stadium, the Thebans raised the war-cry and rushed to close quarters on the run. When, however, the distance between the armies was still about three plethra, the troops whom Herippidas commanded, and with them the Ionians, Aeolians, and Hellespontines, ran forth in their turn from the phalanx of Agesilaus, and the whole mass joined in the charge and, when they came within spear thrust, put to flight the force in their front.

Xenophon on Coroneia

Thank you Duncan, I must read more Xenophon.

Richard T is your man here. He gives this some space in his Greek Phalanx book. I might have now remembered but I am sure he mentions the Spartans sacrificing (a goat?) when already quite close to the enemy and walking into contact.

Quote from: Jim Webster on August 13, 2025, 09:51:46 AMI think that Spartans made a feature of orderly approach and walking into contact, if only because it gave the other side a chance to run away 

Walking gave the designated chef time to BBQ the goat so they could have a light snack on the way into combat.

I've eaten goat curry with the Gurkhas.  Certainly made me run.

 

For what little it's worth, I seem to recall VDH has hoplites running in with an underhand under arm grip to get extra empaling momentum.

Not convinced myself.

If you want to model it, the standard trade off would be some form of initial impact gain vs a longer formation loss penalty

Late to this thread (as usual  ) . . .

Didn't this happen at Delium? I seem to recall VD Hanson writing about this in his treatment of the engagement. Then again, it might just be his interpretation.

At the risk of getting into the weeds, we might consider what it means to run - especially when carrying or wearing what hoplites usually carried or wore.

Quote from: Chris on August 19, 2025, 02:03:34 PMwe might consider what it means to run - especially when carrying or wearing what hoplites usually carried or wore.

Well, there was an athletic contest which specifically tested this question - the hoplitodromos. So, it was certainly considered do-able. Given the limited training of many hoplites, how many of them practised the discipline may be open to question. Any experts on Classical athletics out there?