Bannau Brycheiniog: Views on national park's name change

[Imperial Dave]

the thing is, Wales is losing its identity in some areas because of a massive influx of non Welsh people who then declare they have no interest in learning Welsh (fair enough I suppose-ish) or upholding the Welshness of the area. We then slowly lose our unique Welshness and it becomes just another area of 'England'

The gentrification of Wales is underway and what people are trying to do is promote that Welshness and unique identity before its lost forever

[Justin Swanton]

the thing is, Wales is losing its identity in some areas because of a massive influx of non Welsh people who then declare they have no interest in learning Welsh (fair enough I suppose-ish) or upholding the Welshness of the area. We then slowly lose our unique Welshness and it becomes just another area of 'England'

The gentrification of Wales is underway and what people are trying to do is promote that Welshness and unique identity before its lost forever

I suspect the Englishing of Wales was largely completed a long time ago and there is little one can do other than go with it. According to this a little over half a million people in Wales can speak Welsh, which represents 17,8% of the population.

I doubt that imposing Welsh names will do much towards giving the Welsh a stronger sense of cultural identity. "Cultural identity" is how people right now live in society and it evolves as it will no matter what anyone tries to do about it. Modern society complicates this by homogenising everyone, imposing a worldview (too many US sitcoms) and way of life that has little to do with the way people lived before. Again, not much you can do about it. Best bet is give the young people a good history of Wales showing how the Welsh chieftains incessantly fought each other how the Welsh under Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and Llywelyn Ap Gruffudd heroically resisted the English. If they can be proud of their own people that's a considerable accomplishment.

[Erpingham]

If they can be proud of their own people that's a considerable accomplishment.

I think we are drifting off core business here but I've known numerous people who are proud of their origins in Wales but don't have any facility in the language.  And Wales isn't all about being beaten by the English - they have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times.  Grasp the positives, Dave 

[Justin Swanton]

they have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times.

Like turning a hill into a mountain. 

[Imperial Dave]

One lives with a stoic's heart about such things

[Erpingham]

they have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times.

Like turning a hill into a mountain. 

I was thinking more Lloyd George and pensions, Nye Bevan and the NHS, Richard Burton, Anthony Hopkins, Dylan Thomas, Shirley Bassey etc.  The Marquess of Bute, once the richest man in the world, they say.  See his renovations of Cardiff castle and Castle Coch and thrill to full on Victorian neo-Gothic decor.

(Cunningly attaches a pointer back to medieval history and the controversies of renovating historic building  )

[Justin Swanton]

I'm still impressed by Ffynnon Garw.

[Mark G]

I suspect that Justin's personal history is strongly impacting his views here.  Decolonisation looks quite different when your the culture being decolonised - especially if it's against your wishes.

But it can equally go a bit stupid in the other direction.

Reverting to original names 'replaced' by colonial outcomers is generally a good thing. 
I've loads of those in my history, and one thing they achieve which I'm sure all here approve of is opening up the history before the 'renaming' - try searching for mount Egmont and then the history of mount Taranaki to see what was put into print and taught in schools when that change happened.
I've two superb history books which wouldn't have been printed if that hadn't happened.

But the converse is when the dual language/ renaming becomes a principle without common sense.  A clear example from current home - the Glasgow subway (all 15 stations of it) which is now available in either English or Gaelic.

the two are "parallel" rather than an improved single list.  Like giving weather forecasts in Celsius and Fahrenheit.  No incentive to accept the change.
So Partick has its Gaelic spelling Partaig - why not just get rid of the English misspelling?
while Shields Road (no apostrophe) has Rathad Shields - presumably because no one thought Scots Gaels produced more than one shield.
And Kinning Park has Pairc Kinning.
Clearly the Gael's never had a word for park, so why make up a misspelling?

Edinburgh Cowgate - in 'Gaelic' on all the ScotRail signs: cougait.
Bloody stupid. 
Gaelic dictionary confirms the Gaelic words for cow include Bo, Mart, no-bhainne, and others,  Gaelic for Gate - there are a bunch of words for those too.  So what muppet was allowed to get away with just giving a stupid spelling on public signage?

I'm guessing the salary for this job was high school graduation level.
Great idea ruined by employing think as mince staff.

It's half arsed stuff like that which makes this generally good change become open to ridicule.

Cymru am byth, I say on this

[Justin Swanton]

I suspect that Justin's personal history is strongly impacting his views here.  Decolonisation looks quite different when your the culture being decolonised - especially if it's against your wishes.

It's rather that I prefer names to be organic. The locals give a name to a place and that name sticks though it may be gradually transformed over time (Constantinople to Istanbul). Far more preferable to some govt dept arbitrarily assigning names based on the political expediency of the moment. Personally I wouldn't dream of changing Umbogintwini or Amanzimtoti to anything else, though we do have the habit of using abbreviations for longer names. So Amanzimtoti becomes Toti, Johannesburg becomes Joburg, Pietermaritzburg becomes Maritzburg, and so on (not sure what Umbogintwini contracts to).

[Mark G]

Well Istanbul is arguable - the Turkic rendering of a romanised common expression, I gather.

But Constantinople is the epitome of a faceless burocrat renaming Byzantium, I think.  New boss, new city name.

[Anton]

Edinburgh Cowgate - in 'Gaelic' on all the ScotRail signs: cougait.

Is that not Scots Mark?  There was a bit of a push to include Scots when the signage changes were being mooted.

Brycheiniog was an Irish Kingdom ultimately deriving from Maxim Wledig's settlement of the Deisi.  In due course it became Brythonic. You might track back to that from Bannau Brycheiniog.  I doubt you could from the English name. 

[Justin Swanton]

But Constantinople is the epitome of a faceless burocrat renaming Byzantium, I think.  New boss, new city name.

Not sure I'd call Constantine a faceless bureaucrat, and he did transform the place from a small Black Sea port into the capital of the Empire. So perhaps we can make an exception in his case.

[Ian61]

I'm still impressed by Ffynnon Garw.

In the film 'The Englishman who Went up a Hill but Came down a Mountain' the hill was likely based on 'the Garth' (Mynydd y Garth) this was site of my first experiences with the police as a youngster. (I wasn't impressed). Just because we were up there in the early hours of a winter night does not mean you have to come up every time with your full beams on and ruin our night vision and hassle innocent astronomers. (We were tracking meteors - I have regaled members with a fuller story an the convention so won't here.)

[Nick Harbud]

Of course, one might think that all this arguing over the correct language to use for street names, etc, can be avoided by simply using numbers instead.  However, one needs to have a consistent numbering system and stick with it, rather than restarting from 1 each time you develop a new district.  Look at this screenshot of downtown Khobar in Saudi Arabia to see what happens if you fail to get a grip at an early stage.

Also, in this part of the world, it is not unusual for main roads to be named after various members of the royal family, which can lead to multiple changes and great confusion whenever the monarch dies.  In order to survive such chaos, the locals tend to use their own names based upon easily recognised landmarks.  Thus Prince Sultan Road is known as Taba (from a shopping centre located partway down the street) and Prince Faisal bin Fahd Road is referred to as Pepsi-Cola Road (due to a prominent advertising billboard).

This phenomenom can also be seen in Wales where Yr Wyddfa (Cairn of the Giant Rhita) is also known by the Old English term for Snow Hill.

[Justin Swanton]

Of course, one might think that all this arguing over the correct language to use for street names, etc, can be avoided by simply using numbers instead.  However, one needs to have a consistent numbering system and stick with it, rather than restarting from 1 each time you develop a new district.  Look at this screenshot of downtown Khobar in Saudi Arabia to see what happens if you fail to get a grip at an early stage.

Also, in this part of the world, it is not unusual for main roads to be named after various members of the royal family, which can lead to multiple changes and great confusion whenever the monarch dies.  In order to survive such chaos, the locals tend to use their own names based upon easily recognised landmarks.  Thus Prince Sultan Road is known as Taba (from a shopping centre located partway down the street) and Prince Faisal bin Fahd Road is referred to as Pepsi-Cola Road (due to a prominent advertising billboard).

This phenomenom can also be seen in Wales where Yr Wyddfa (Cairn of the Giant Rhita) is also known by the Old English term for Snow Hill.

Sensible.