Another knight/lance question for you smart guys!
(I'm writing a story about a knight hence the questions.)
How does a mounted knight salute with a lance?
In my particular case, the knight has just won a joust and he presents himself before his queen who is seated in the stands.
(I couldn't find the answer on Google, though I did learn how a lance corporal salutes Queen Elizabeth.)
Thanks for your help!
Stephen
Which century and which realm is the story set in, please, Stephen?
And is the queen the Marshal of the Tournament or just present as the centrepiece lady?
Saluting with a lance is simple enough: it would usually be carried upright, and to salute one would dip it forward no more than 45 degrees and preferably not more than 30 degrees (any more looks aggressive) and then return it to the upright position.
The question in my mind is whether he would actually do this or just hand his lance to his square, dismount, unhelm, wait to be called and then walk up and kneel before her, which would be proper if Her Majesty were the Marshal of the Tournament. At least it would be proper in Norman England; a victorious knight in Norman France might show somewhat more panache. Hence if we can pin down the culture (or if fiction, cultural equivalent) the answer might suggest itself.
My learned colleagues may have more - or even something different - to say on the subject.
Hi Patrick,
The setting is Arthurian England.
Launcelot has won a joust against Meliagrance which obliges Meliagrance to free Guenever from his tower prison. So it isn't a tournament and the three of them are the only characters present. Certainly though, the queen is the centerpiece.
I've considered having him dismount and I haven't completely thrown out the idea. But it's a question of ambiance (that would take some explaining).
Then there's the banner.
Guenever used Launcelot's banner as the signal to begin each ride. So I thought she'd give it back to him.
In a formal tournament, isn't there a ceremony where the lady of whom the knight is champion ties his banner to the end of his lance? (I want to say I saw that in a movie, maybe Ivanhoe.)
This would happen after the salute, of course.
Thanks for the context, Stephen: it sounds like an interesting novel.
It was usual for a lady's favour to be given - and worn - before any action started in a tournament. I presume this is a straight Arthurian duel to free the lady from durance vile or at least undesired rather than a tournament as such, so unless Meliagrance had let Guenever out to watch the fun before the duel started, she would have had no chance to confer her favour, usually a scarf or similar, occasionally something more intimate like a ribbon or handkerchief, upon her chosen champion. Had she been able to do so, I think it would have been more usual for the knight to wear it on his helmet or perhaps around his arm rather than tied around the end of his lance, where it could easily be soiled or lost. Then again Launcelot could be pretty confident of putting down his opponent first time, so maybe he would tie it on the end of his lance.
I get the impression that at tournaments such favours were usually conferred secretly, not least because the lady's husband might be less than pleased if she paid open attention to another man.
And as Launcelot has just won the joust, has unseated his foe who is presumably in no shape to do anything except lie on the ground groaning and Launcelot is still holding his lance, and this is an Arthurian setting, I think you are free to either have him salute her by turning towards her and bringing his lance up to the vertical or do so by bringing it to the vertical, turning to face her, and lowering it forward 30 degrees or so and holding the position a moment before returning it to the vertical again.
What he does after that is entirely up to you. One advantage about an Arthurian setting is that it is possible to bend the rules a little. :)
Also consider the underlying symbolism
The salute with the lance dipped means you're still on your horse and you're perfectly prepared to fight or if necessary retire
The salute by dismounting, kneeling or whatever means that you have effectively disarmed yourself and placed yourself at the disposal of whoever is in charge.
The latter could be construed as showing considerable trust and respect for whoever you're saluting
Very good point Jim, and quite an interesting bit to put on a novel
To be authentically Arthurian, you are probably looking towards French or English practice of the High Middle Ages, even into the Tudor period (though I think I draw a halt after Henry VIII - the Elizabethan tournament seems to have a different feel).
For general inspiration there are some good reads here http://faculty.nipissingu.ca/muhlberger/CHRONIQU/texts/deedsch.htm (http://faculty.nipissingu.ca/muhlberger/CHRONIQU/texts/deedsch.htm)
In terms of the question of saluting, I'm not sure a knight would necessarily salute lance in hand after a joust - the lance was usually broken or was handed off to a page between runs. So our hero might ride up to the viewing stand, remove helmet and bow in the saddle. Prize giving seems to have usually taken place on foot after the joust, so this might be an option too.
According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute) the modern salute originates from the practice of medieval knights raising their visors to recognise each other.
Quote from: NickHarbud on July 18, 2015, 11:26:41 AM
According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute) the modern salute originates from the practice of medieval knights raising their visors to recognise each other.
I've read this elsewhere and, I have to admit, have filed it in my "medieval origin myths" section liked the "two fingered salute". There is, IIRC, a version that relates this to tournament practice - knights lifted their visors as they approached the officiating dignatory of the tournament at the beginning to confirm their identity, so that no Heath Ledger type non-nobles got into a joust incognito. My concern with it is military saluting as we know it is late 19th century (?) and from the 16th to early 19th century saluting was by removing the hat, later reduced to reaching up to touch the brim. This brim touching I'd suspect is the real origin of the modern salute.
However, good evidence for the medieval version could be out there - does anyone know?
Quote from: Mark G on July 18, 2015, 10:08:50 AM
Very good point Jim, and quite an interesting bit to put on a novel
It's a nice way to set a scene and give the feel for a situation, have him running the options through his mind as he decides which to do 8)
Jim
QuoteIt's a nice way to set a scene and give the feel for a situation, have him running the options through his mind as he decides which to do 8)
LOL Jim, that would be fun but my character is only 6!
I do intend for the little guy to become a wargamer, so I'll keep that in mind for a later story.
Thank you all for your input.
I'll reply to the thread with a link to the story when I've finished it. Unless I have another question first -- the last scene is the feast!
Quote from: Erpingham on July 18, 2015, 12:14:52 PM
However, good evidence for the medieval version could be out there - does anyone know?
If it is, it seems to be buried in the X-files, although the subject has been discussed elsewhere (http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/9995/what-is-the-earliest-known-account-of-the-modern-military-salute), with conclusions not dissimilar to our own.
The Metropolitan Museum of Art is confident enough to state the following in its list of misconceptions about arms and armour (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm):
Quote"The military salute originates from the raising of a visor.—Uncertain.
It is sometimes argued that the military salute originated during the Roman Republic, when assassinations were common and citizens were required to approach public officials with their right hand raised in order to show that they did not conceal a weapon. A more common account is that the modern military salute originated from men in armor raising the visors of their helmets before greeting their lord or comrades. This gesture would have made a person both recognizable as well as vulnerable, at the same time demonstrating that the right hand (i.e., the sword hand) did not carry a weapon, both being signs of trust and good intention.
Although these theories are compelling (and romantic), there is actually little evidence to support either of them as the direct origin of the modern military salute. As for the Roman practice, it would be virtually impossible to prove that it continued through fifteen centuries (or was revived during the Renaissance), leading in a straight line to the modern military salute. There is also no direct evidence for the visor theory, although it is more recent. The majority of helmets for war after around 1600 were increasingly of types not fitted with visors, and helmets became rare on European battlefields after about 1700.
Be that as it may, English seventeenth-century military records indicate that "the formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress." By about 1745, an English regiment, the Coldstream Guards, appears to have amended this procedure, being instructed to "clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by." This practice was quickly adopted by other English regiments and may have spread from England to America (via the War of Independence) and Continental Europe (through the Napoleonic Wars). Accordingly, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, with the military salute originating as a gesture of respect and politeness parallel to the civilian custom of raising or tipping one's hat, possibly in combination with the warrior's custom of showing an unarmed right hand."
This generally accords with what I find elsewhere, which at least shows the consensus of present thinking.
It certainly hangs together and makes sense Patrick
Thanks, Jim, though the Metropolitan Museum of Art or their source deserves the credit rather than my poor self.
At least we have a coherent and tenable idea about how and when the modern salute developed.
I would add that few jousting helms had a visor, it would be more appropriate to that worn for the melee.
In terms of saluting, as mentioned, a knight gained victory in the joust by shattering their lance on their opponent. So, having handed the stump to their squire, they would more likely do a flourish with their right hand.
Very good point.
The goal was to shatter your lance. Not to knock the other block off his horse.
Quote from: Mark G on July 21, 2015, 04:17:11 PM
Very good point.
The goal was to shatter your lance. Not to knock the other block off his horse.
This will depend on which set of rules Stephen chooses for his fictitious tournament. Some score unhorsing, others just score lance breaking. See for example Tiptoft's rules from the 15th century
http://www.thehojos.com/~stmikes/tiptoft.htm (http://www.thehojos.com/~stmikes/tiptoft.htm)
I also found this when searching, which, if you can get past the gender studies element, says some interesting stuff on the Tudor joust.
https://www.academia.edu/8985081/Scoring_Masculinity_the_English_Tournament_and_the_Jousting_Cheques_of_the_early_Sixteenth_Century (https://www.academia.edu/8985081/Scoring_Masculinity_the_English_Tournament_and_the_Jousting_Cheques_of_the_early_Sixteenth_Century)
Quote from: Erpingham on July 21, 2015, 04:45:42 PM
I also found this when searching, which, if you can get past the gender studies element, says some interesting stuff on the Tudor joust.
https://www.academia.edu/8985081/Scoring_Masculinity_the_English_Tournament_and_the_Jousting_Cheques_of_the_early_Sixteenth_Century (https://www.academia.edu/8985081/Scoring_Masculinity_the_English_Tournament_and_the_Jousting_Cheques_of_the_early_Sixteenth_Century)
For those who cannot, key snippets are:
"
Tournaments were well established by the early sixteenth century with conventions and rules governing how they should be organised and conducted. The joust was fought between two individuals, the knights riding from opposite ends of the lists to encounter each other with lances. The joust became a more formalised competition as rules were introduced, including score cheques and prizes. These prizes presented by the Queen and her ladies might include a falcon, a gold clasp, a gold crown or even a diamond ring. Score cheques showed the scores of each of the knights that took part. Points were awarded for unhorsing a knight, striking an opponent's helmet and breaking the most spears."
and
"
Score cheques are the only class of record specifically created by the tournament in England. The scores were marked in strokes by a king of arms, on a scoring tablet, termed a cheque. The scoring board itself was in the form of a parallelogram; with three horizontal lines with the middle line showing the number of courses run (usually between two and eight). The attaints were noted on the top line and they were often differentiated as hits on the body or head, which had a different value in the table. The middle line inside the parallelogram represented the number of lances broken and the bottom line those ill broken. There are only half a dozen score cheques that survive from the reign of Henry VIII held in the College of Arms. The earliest surviving jousting cheques are those in Herald's College Manuscript M.3 recording the scores made at jousts held by Edward duke of Buckingham in honour of the marriage of Prince Arthur in 1501."
In essence, Tudor tournaments appear to have been more like modern fencing, in which the idea is to score valid hits on the opponent but not necessarily put him on the ground. Arthurian horseback duelling as delineated in (e.g.) Malory was far more intent on putting the man down and on occasion involved impaling the horse (whether intentionally or not is unclear). It also tended to involve both participants dismounting to continue on foot with swords if immediate ascendancy was not established by the lance. One may note that these single combats were not tournaments as such (Arthurian tournaments tended to be a bit predictable as Lancelot would win anyway) but seem to have been the sort of encounter expected when one knight duelled another for honour, a lady's hand, who gets to cross the bridge, etc.
Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, fellows. I seem to have missed the second page...
Quote from: janner on July 21, 2015, 10:41:57 AM
In terms of saluting, as mentioned, a knight gained victory in the joust by shattering their lance on their opponent. So, having handed the stump to their squire, they would more likely do a flourish with their right hand.
Stephen panics... reaches for his author's license...
Quote from: Erpingham on July 21, 2015, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: Mark G on July 21, 2015, 04:17:11 PM
Very good point.
The goal was to shatter your lance. Not to knock the other block off his horse.
This will depend on which set of rules Stephen chooses for his fictitious tournament. Some score unhorsing, others just score lance breaking.
Oof... Erpingham saves the day!
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 21, 2015, 07:37:23 PM
In essence, Tudor tournaments appear to have been more like modern fencing, in which the idea is to score valid hits on the opponent but not necessarily put him on the ground. Arthurian horseback duelling as delineated in (e.g.) Malory was far more intent on putting the man down and on occasion involved impaling the horse (whether intentionally or not is unclear). It also tended to involve both participants dismounting to continue on foot with swords if immediate ascendancy was not established by the lance. One may note that these single combats were not tournaments as such (Arthurian tournaments tended to be a bit predictable as Lancelot would win anyway) but seem to have been the sort of encounter expected when one knight duelled another for honour, a lady's hand, who gets to cross the bridge, etc.
And Patrick's closing paragraph tidies up.
Indeed, the story is Malory inspired and Lancelot wins anyway. It's darn near finished. I'll let you all know here when I post it.
As always, Ancients, I salute you!
Quote from: Stephen Wendell on August 13, 2015, 08:04:26 AM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 21, 2015, 07:37:23 PM
In essence, Tudor tournaments appear to have been more like modern fencing, in which the idea is to score valid hits on the opponent but not necessarily put him on the ground. Arthurian horseback duelling as delineated in (e.g.) Malory was far more intent on putting the man down and on occasion involved impaling the horse (whether intentionally or not is unclear). It also tended to involve both participants dismounting to continue on foot with swords if immediate ascendancy was not established by the lance. One may note that these single combats were not tournaments as such (Arthurian tournaments tended to be a bit predictable as Lancelot would win anyway) but seem to have been the sort of encounter expected when one knight duelled another for honour, a lady's hand, who gets to cross the bridge, etc.
And Patrick's closing paragraph tidies up.
Indeed, the story is Malory inspired and Lancelot wins anyway. It's darn near finished. I'll let you all know here when I post it.
As always, Ancients, I salute you!
Over a two year period I fought through the entire Pendragon role playing campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendragon_(role-playing_game)
Trust me in this, anybody who plays through the entire thing ends up loathing Lancelot with a passion. He's never there when there's proper fighting and he's always just that one little bit better than everybody else.
But is as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
:)
Having touched on Pendragon myself, Jim, I know what you mean - it seems Greg Stafford made a deliberate choice to keep Lancelot out of the players' way because otherwise in the early stages he would steal the show and make the players look and feel totally insignificant (which sort of happens from behind the scenes anyway) and in the later stages of
Boy King some of the more capable player characters might upstage or even kill him, which would make a complete mess of the carefully contrived narrative.
Quote from: Stephen Wendell on August 13, 2015, 08:04:26 AM
Indeed, the story is Malory inspired and Lancelot wins anyway. It's darn near finished. I'll let you all know here when I post it.
I look forward to it. :)
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on August 13, 2015, 12:56:37 PM
Having touched on Pendragon myself, Jim, I know what you mean - it seems Greg Stafford made a deliberate choice to keep Lancelot out of the players' way because otherwise in the early stages he would steal the show and make the players look and feel totally insignificant (which sort of happens from behind the scenes anyway) and in the later stages of Boy King some of the more capable player characters might upstage or even kill him, which would make a complete mess of the carefully contrived narrative.
Due to the fact that we went down the 'foedorate' route and some of our families had a lot of Saxon in them by the time the campaign ended we'd bred knights who were big enough to take on Lancelot ;D
Impressive characters! Acquiring an early Frisian destrier would also help to give an edge, as would a carefully built-up passion. But nothing really beats the well-equipped hardened campaigner with some decent ancestry behind him. :)
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on August 14, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
Impressive characters! Acquiring an early Frisian destrier would also help to give an edge, as would a carefully built-up passion. But nothing really beats the well-equipped hardened campaigner with some decent ancestry behind him. :)
By the time of the final battle between them, after Camlann, he had a passion of 'Hatred Lancelot' of 20 :-)
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 14, 2015, 09:01:30 PM
By the time of the final battle between them, after Camlann, he had a passion of 'Hatred Lancelot' of 20 :-)
By all the gods (or the one true God), that must have taken some dedication! Poor old Lancelot.
Changing the subject slightly, I worked out that the Pendragon system could, with very few adjustments, make quite a good Homeric period game. Substitute Hurled Spear for Lance, Charioteer for Horsemanship and Hate (Greeks/Trojans) for Hate Saxons and with a few minor adjustments you are practically there. The individual and group-in-battle combat systems transfer like a charm and about the only major social change is to get rid of courtly love and substitute abduction.
The system also fits WW1 fighter combat quite well, but that is another story. ;)
After Camlann he declared himself Bretwalda and the first Saxon overlord accepted over all of Britain 8)
After the battle when Lancelot wanders in bewailing the fact that he'd missed it, he was challenged to a duel, killed in fair combat, and then Guinevere was tried for adultery, found guilty and if memory serves me correctly, executed by being drowned in a marsh under a hurdle (which was at one point traditional)
But yes, it would translate easily enough to the heroic option.
I thought of re-running it from 408AD until the battle of Camlann but as historically as possible but it took two years last time!
Jim
And it would probably take even longer this time.
Interesting campaign, though. It leads me to wonder about historical-ish RPG campaigns with occasional battles as a way of introducing the next generation to miniature wargaming, but mostly I just enjoyed a chat with a fellow RPG-er. :)
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on August 16, 2015, 12:06:48 PM
And it would probably take even longer this time.
Interesting campaign, though. It leads me to wonder about historical-ish RPG campaigns with occasional battles as a way of introducing the next generation to miniature wargaming, but mostly I just enjoyed a chat with a fellow RPG-er. :)
I used to pretend I was a fighter, now I pretend I'm the general ;)
And finally,
Littlelot, the story of a game of make-believe with knights and damsels in distress and other action figures.
Littlelot is a short story. It comes in six episodes, which I'll post, one per week, on Wednesdays.
http://bit.ly/1hnzIFd
Lancelot and his lance are described in the first episode. Spoiler: The lance goes in its "boot."
In fiction, a lance is like a gun: If you show it the first episode, you have to knock somebody off a horse with it by the fourth episode. I know waiting so long will be difficult and drive most of you to drink and make you paint figurines and stage mock battles with them, so I put something for you in the third episode: In preparation for the joust, you'll learn how a cowboy figure can be used as a knight, and we'll take the lance out of its boot!
The joust follows in the fourth episode. I'm not giving anything away to you guys if I tell you Lancelot wins in his usual style.
And if you can wait long enough, in the fifth episode there's a salute with the lance!
Thanks again to all of you for your input!
Stephen
Littlelot http://bit.ly/1hnzIFd
QuoteIt was a rainy day in May, so I had to play inside. Granddad and I were playing make-believe with my action figures on the floor of Granddad's study.... I liked to play make-believe with Granddad. He let me make believe whatever I wanted, and he talked for other people in the game, like the peasant who said he owed me a favor for helping him.
How much publicity do you want for it, I have friends who would doubtless like it and could post the link on facebook etc :-)
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 19, 2015, 08:23:51 AM
How much publicity do you want for it, I have friends who would doubtless like it and could post the link on facebook etc :-)
I'd like as much publicity as you can muster, Jim. And I really appreciate your thoughtfulness!
It's only a short story but it's my first (good) one, so I'm doing an all-out "episode launch" today.
Quote from: Stephen Wendell on August 19, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 19, 2015, 08:23:51 AM
How much publicity do you want for it, I have friends who would doubtless like it and could post the link on facebook etc :-)
I'd like as much publicity as you can muster, Jim. And I really appreciate your thoughtfulness!
It's only a short story but it's my first (good) one, so I'm doing an all-out "episode launch" today.
Well I've put the link on Facebook and shared it on Goodreads, so hopefully that'll get you some attention
Thanks, Jim. You're a gem!
Just one piece of advice about 'presentation.'
If you include a picture in your blog then that picture will appear whenever the blog is shared on Facebook.
This is 'important' because it's a pictorial media and you're competing with cute cats and similar.
What I tend to do is to just search google images for something suitable. Plenty of fine art well out of copyright 8)
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 20, 2015, 07:22:10 AM
If you include a picture in your blog then that picture will appear whenever the blog is shared on Facebook.
This is 'important' because it's a pictorial media and you're competing with cute cats and similar.
That's good advice, Jim. I've been thinking about what to do about the graphics.
Them cats, them cats!
Quote from: Stephen Wendell on August 20, 2015, 09:44:07 AM
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 20, 2015, 07:22:10 AM
If you include a picture in your blog then that picture will appear whenever the blog is shared on Facebook.
This is 'important' because it's a pictorial media and you're competing with cute cats and similar.
That's good advice, Jim. I've been thinking about what to do about the graphics.
Them cats, them cats!
I did a blog :-)
https://jandbvwebster.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/sex-drugs-rock-and-roll-and-cute-cat-pictures/
And for the current work I've put together this facebook page which I add to
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Land-of-the-Three-Seas/426394067386022
(Thus rendering facebook all the more terrible for those who know me)
For the SF I did this one which I've not updated for a while because I've been busy with the Fantasy
https://www.facebook.com/TsarinaSector
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 20, 2015, 10:14:40 AM
I did a blog :-)
https://jandbvwebster.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/sex-drugs-rock-and-roll-and-cute-cat-pictures/
Great idea, use cat images on the blog!
I hesitated about using public domain images. I so wanted to use my own photos or maybe even do my own drawings!
But making a photo of action figures is difficult since I don't have access to any action figures, and I can't draw anything other than maps on hex paper.
Finally, I discovered a goodly number of very nice pictures from various illustrated versions of King Arthur published in the early part of the last century.
So there's a bonus this week: Eye candy! Gwenevere in a see-through gown!
Gwenevere(http://www.stephenwendell.net/.a/6a00d8342106f153ef01bb08685176970d-120wi)
She said I had to be nice to her doll, because one time my big brother ripped Barbie's head off. Dolls and action figures are like that. Their heads turn from side to side, and you can rip them straight off. It's easy to stick them back on again, but ripping their heads off isn't a nice thing to do. (http://bit.ly/1EVwj5n)
Golfing for cats.
With a picture of hitler on the cover.
Hits all the biggest publishing sales figures in one go.
Okay, this will be my last intrusion. Fans of ye old Chainmail rules for medieval minatures (Gygax & Perren, 1971) might find the fourth episode of Littlelot entertaining. I used the Jousting Matrix to write the scene. For each ride, you should be able to tell which aiming points and defensive positions Lancelot and Malegant are using. (Let me know if I made a mistake!)
The Joust
(http://www.stephenwendell.net/.a/6a00d8342106f153ef01b7c7ca99fe970b-120wi)
"Give up, Malegant! I am the best fighter of all the knights of the Round Table."
"You are only the best until you are bested by another," he said as he raised the point of his lance high. (http://bit.ly/1LjFGOx)
And here's a link to an index of all the episodes.
Littlelot -- Episode Index
(http://bit.ly/1PYxvLh)