Query recently on Fanaticus
"Hi all. I'm thinking of building a I/14g army, the "I". But I can't find any information concerning them anywhere. Does anyone now where to find anything about them? "
Anyone have any useful info on this early far eastern/Chinese army ?
In pinyin (the transcription most of the non-WRG world uses nowadays) they'd be known as the "Yi". Unfortunately, this isn't terribly helpful as there are several non-Chinese peoples known by that name - it's also a general term for "Barbarian".
But the list notes locate them in the Huai river valley, which presumably means they're the same as the group called Huaiyi in WP's article on the Dongyi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongyi) ("Eastern Yi"). Unhappily, said article is ill referenced. Googling the name is rather useless since it's also a personal name.
A couple Google book passages that may be of something akin to help:
https://books.google.se/books?id=VLxPDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT89&lpg=PT89&dq=yi+of+the+ancient+huai+valley&source=bl&ots=hTKt2iENNR&sig=ACfU3U0bcCgzA1V6bDKsGGakBUJ6hebsCA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwqeb90fziAhVS1qYKHdrpADYQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=yi%20of%20the%20ancient%20huai%20valley&f=false
https://books.google.se/books?id=cHA7Ey0-pbEC&pg=PA549&lpg=PA549&dq=yi+of+the+ancient+huai+valley&source=bl&ots=Y0Jrkw5b2K&sig=ACfU3U1xhAkts2aHMK9_7YPDaR_f89KUPg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwqeb90fziAhVS1qYKHdrpADYQ6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=yi%20of%20the%20ancient%20huai%20valley&f=false
https://books.google.se/books?id=C_F4Y93n3l0C&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=yi+of+the+ancient+huai+valley&source=bl&ots=iVN4AQJrZn&sig=ACfU3U1yYRujIxGHWAXNt56D6c0gfKpsYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwqeb90fziAhVS1qYKHdrpADYQ6AEwBXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=yi%20of%20the%20ancient%20huai%20valley&f=false
Presumably there must be some archaeology on what sorts of ceramics they liked, but I suspect that finding any information on what their troops may have look like pretty much hopeless.
Oh, and here's a nutty piece that would have it that, inter alii, the Incans were off-shoots of the Dongyi: https://www.g-casa.com/conferences/vienna16/paper_pdf/Liu.pdf
Thanks Andreas...I'll pass that on 👍👍
Chris Peers, in his first Chinese Osprey, reconstructed the I or Yi as primitive types in skin kilts (https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bc/dc/0b/bcdc0b984a7fbdfa0ab8a5f30e53c251--ancient-china-genghis-khan.jpg) - and it is this illustration on which the Essex 15mm "Chinese barbarians" in the Shang and Chou range (https://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/15mm-ancient-shang-or-chou-chinese) are based.
However I have never been quite sure what led him to this conclusion, as modern scholars writing on early China are generally of the opinion that the Yi were the most civilized of the surrounding "barbarians", organised into small kingdoms quite similar to the Zhou feudal states and, it would seem, being thoroughly absorbed into the Chinese polity probably before the end of the Western Zhou. See for instance Wikipedia on the Xu state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_(state)). This suggests that they may have dressed and armed themselves rather more like their Shang-Zhou contemporaries.
Any idea who constructed the army lists for this army? Any idea how it came about?
Quote from: Duncan Head on June 24, 2019, 09:01:53 AM
Chris Peers, in his first Chinese Osprey, reconstructed the I or Yi as primitive types in skin kilts (https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bc/dc/0b/bcdc0b984a7fbdfa0ab8a5f30e53c251--ancient-china-genghis-khan.jpg) [...]
However I have never been quite sure what led him to this conclusion, as modern scholars writing on early China are generally of the opinion that the Yi were the most civilized of the surrounding "barbarians"
As someone pointed out in the Fanaticus thread, the Book of Rites describes the Rong and Di as dressed in animal skins; the lack of a similar statement about the Yi and Man would appear to suggest they dressed less exotically.
Regarding the list, it speaks of "The I of the Huai river valley" as famous archers, but judging from the somewhat cryptical remarks in the WP articles the bow was associated with the Yi in general, not just those of that region.
Quote from: Martin Smith on June 24, 2019, 07:24:36 PM
Any idea who constructed the army lists for this army? Any idea how it came about?
I don't recall who wrote the original DBM ENB list - perhaps Chris Peers? I think I may have grafted on the solitary line that distinguishes the Yi - making them primarily an archery army - at some later version, based on the rather scant literary evidence for the association of the Yi with archery.
Quote from: Duncan Head on June 24, 2019, 08:30:55 PM
I think I may have grafted on the solitary line that distinguishes the Yi - making them primarily an archery army - at some later version, based on the rather scant literary evidence for the association of the Yi with archery.
Given that the character for 'Yi' is formed from the characters for 'big' and 'bow', there may be some good fundamental basis for that judgement.
Quote from: Duncan Head on June 24, 2019, 08:30:55 PM
I think I may have grafted on the solitary line that distinguishes the Yi - making them primarily an archery army - at some later version, based on the rather scant literary evidence for the association of the Yi with archery.
Just for fun, I took a look at the 1993 DBM version of the list - the notes mentions the Yi as one of the tribes covered, but they're not distinguished in any way in the list itself.
(Also, this version only covers the peri-Sinitic tribes - I had sort of assumed these had been grafted onto a list for Bronze and early Iron Age transalpine Europeans (who are distinctly more northern than the inhabitants of the Huai river valley!), but evidently it's the reverse.)