This one has always puzzled me. The late Roman legion relied heavily on missile fire. Part of its repertoire was to have the back ranks of its infantry line armed with bows. These troops would shoot over the heads of the front ranks into the enemy and decimate/disorganise them whilst the front ranks fought them hand to hand.
In my youth I did archery as a hobby, and I can say straight out that there is no way you can stand at the back of a body of friendly troops and hope to shoot another body of enemy troops just behind them without turning your buddies into kebabs. Also the idea of shooting straight up so the arrows fall on an enemy about ten yards away just does not work. A slight gust of wind and you are the one who gets the point.
Any ideas on how back rank shooting could have been made to work?
Two ways Justin,
Firstly the back ranks shoot at a defined angle to the horizontal. Their officers start them at 45% and then drop them to 30 and then 20 as the opponent advances. It's a simple enough drill to shout position one, position two etc. shooting at the different positions will result in a different beaten zone for each so the arrow fall will track with the enemy as he comes on.
Secondly the front ranks , armed with verutum and dart could kneel whilst the archers shoot at an enemy200 yards away, rising up when he reaches 50 yards so that they could use their darts.
We know that Romans, Byzantines and Arabs used back rank archers. I think it pretty likely that goths do the same. From Maurice's description of Byzantines I would expect a combination of the two ways I suggest above with the front ranks leaning forward to facilitate shooting.
Roy
OK, that makes sense. Back rank shooting took place whilst the enemy was still a distance away. Presumably the archers put their bows away and took hold of melee weapons once the lines met.
My 42 pound recurve bow was inclined up at about 20 degrees when shooting a target 100 yards away. You would be shooting at 45 degrees from 200 yards. It would be better for the front ranks to be kneeling for anything less than the extreme ranges unless the ranks of archers are a few yards away from the melee troops.
Of course the front ranks of a Late Roman legion are missile armed so they need the last few yards of an enemy advance to throw their javelins. I imagine that arrows are less effective against opponents charging in with shields when shot at a flat trajectory so the formation isn't losing that much firepower as the archers cease and the scutati take over. Of course, if cavalry are charging the unit the archers have a target all the way through. One wonders too whether , as in the old WRG 6th ration days the legion might be deployed on a rise or hill so that the back ranks were naturally elevated?
Roy
it raises one interesting question for me.
In the accounts of Hoplites fighting Sparabara, are their any references to the bow fire ceasing at a certain range - or conversly, the front rank spearmen getting out of the way to allow a flatter trajectory?
i.e., are we looking at a mortar style minimum range for mixed spear and bow units?
Yes, good point Mark. Once the wall of shields is raised I cannot see how the front rankers could drop it and get it back up in any order. Your minimum distance idea is a good one. That would help explain how the Greeks changed the rules of the game by running forward at marathon.
Roy
Ammianus' account of Argentoratum suggests that missile use continued during hand-to-hand fighting.
"Then a cloud of hissing javelins flew hither and thither, the dust arose with steady motion on both sides and hid the view, so that weapon struck blindly on weapon and body against body. [44] But the savages, thrown into disorder by their violence and anger, flamed up like fire, and hacked with repeated strokes of their swords at the close-jointed array of shields, which protected our men like a tortoise-formation." - XVI.12.44
"But the Alamanni, who enter eagerly into wars, made all the greater effort, as if to destroy utterly everything in their way by a kind of fit of rage. Yet darts and javelins did not cease to fly, with showers of iron-tipped arrows, although at close quarters also blade clashed on blade and breastplates were cleft with the sword; the wounded too, before all their blood was shed, rose up to some more conspicuous deed of daring." - idem, 46
The repeated waves of Germans imply considerable depth to their dispositions, as does the consideration that they outnumbered the Romans 3:1 on a similar frontage. Most of the missiles were probably travelling from the Roman rear ranks to lines of Germans not yet in melee - and Ammianus' observations that the Germans were fighting uphill and there was a clear slope all the way to the riverbank suggest that the Roman missilemen might even have been able to see their targets, at least before the dust became too prevalent, and could thereafter probably adjust their aim by the kind of noise (howls of pain or nothing) their volleys were generating when they landed.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on December 19, 2012, 07:56:33 PM
Ammianus' account of Argentoratum suggests that missile use continued during hand-to-hand fighting.
It does go back to the issue of what hand-to-hand fighting was like. If it wasn't continuous, but the lines eased apart at intervals, the archers could restart harrassing shots without hitting their own side. If it was continuous, as you say, the implications are of deep formations, or multiple lines, which could be engaged by the rear ranks while the front ranks have at it. Also, we should watch the ammunition supply issue. I don't know how this worked in the late Roman army but I'd guess the officers would not want their men shooting when there wasn't much chance of having a meaningful effect, keeping arrows back for critical times.
and frankly, I would not want to be in any front line that allowed men behind me to try and throw over my head.
Mind you, my head is a lot closer to the stars than most of those guys were.
there are some diagrams here
http://garyb.0catch.com/line3_pilum/pilum_volley.html
on Pila thorwing which are pertinant. the example from the OP on the problem with a bow attempting to hit a target at close range without a flat trajectory are also relevant.
it does seem to me that the problems do suggest that this reference to missiles while fighting can be understood better by accepting a non continuous melee model, and having the missiles occurring at a time when the front lines are apart (but still 'fighting'), rather than as having things whirling overhead while you are raising arms and chopping down with axes.
I can see a second row man throwing an axe or dart over my shoulder with a bit of team training - just as him issue a mighty blow while I did the blocking for him could work with training.
But any further than that, and the guy throwing is not going to see the target anyway, and there are all those variables with backwards space and the need for a run up, the loss of velocity from the need for a high angle, the strength of helmets and everything - it seems like a nuissance weapon for men not in the front line, not a killing weapon at best the further back it comes - and the greater the risk to your own men from a mis timed or wind gusted missile.
It may also be worth considering terrain. Argentoratum was fought on a continuous slope, and I suspect that, given the keenness of Germans to get into a fight, Late Roman armies would where possible deploy on a slope and let the enemy come to them. ("They came on in the same old style and were beaten off in the same old style.") This would also incidentally give the rear ranks (those who loose missiles overhead) a decent view of the enemy rather than a blind loosing-by-numbers situation and a lower 'safe' trajectory.
Another advantage of an up-slope, on-slope deployment is that when the attacker churns uphill he kicks up such dust as is around, but while this impedes his vision the defender's missile-using troops are above the dust and can still pick their targets.
All this suggests that the Late Roman army's infantry was tactically and organisationally optimised to fight on slopes. Could this have been a conscious evolution of doctrine? Vegetius says this:
"Good generals are acutely aware that victory depends much on the nature of the field of battle. When you intend therefore to engage, endeavor to draw the chief advantage from your situation. The highest ground is reckoned the best. Weapons thrown from a height strike with greater force; and the party above their antagonists can repulse and bear them down with greater impetuosity, while they who struggle with the ascent have both the ground and the enemy to contend with. There is, however, this difference with regard to place: if you depend on your foot against the enemy's horse, you must choose a rough, unequal and mountainous situation. But if, on the contrary, you expect your cavalry to act with advantage against the enemy's infantry, your ground must indeed be higher, but plain and open, without any obstructions of woods or morasses." - Epitomai Rei Militaris III.12
On level ground, it would still be necessary for someone to 'call the numbers' for shooting, most of which would be volleys by order. The old questions about how to get arrows to land where desired would still apply.
Concerning pilum-throwing, the current estimate of c.20 yards may be much too modest. Remembering Caesar's account of Pharsalus:
"Between the two armies, there was an interval sufficient for the onset: but Pompey had given his troops orders to keep their ground, that Caesar's army might have all that way to run. This he is said to have done by the advice of C. Triarius, that the enemy's ranks might be broken and themselves put out of breath, by having so far to run; of which disorder he hoped to make an advantage. He was besides of opinion, that our javelins would have less effect, by the troops continuing in their post, than if they sprung forward at the very time they were launched; and as the soldiers would have twice as far to run as usual, they must be weary and breathless by the time they came up with the first line." - Caesar, De Bello Civili, III.92.
A run-up of this nature would have significantly increased the range of the pilum. However the limited range from a standing start may help to explain why in the Late Legion back-rankers used lighter javelins or bows: this would make sense if the later legion were expected habitually to fight as a static entity holding its ground, as did the Primani at Argentoratum.
Patrick
[Edit: 'gorund' to 'ground' - in case anyone wondered how a soldier could hold his 'gorund']
One thing does come to mind: target archery involves the use of a sight, which is raised or lowered on the bow depending on the distance of the target. Hunting archery does not use a sight and the draw technique is different. A target archer pulls the string to the nose, mouth and chin, and aims by lining up the string and sight pin on the target. A hunter pulls the string back to the ear whilst his face looks forward. He must have a feel for the distance; he doesn't have a mechanical way of calculating it.
That being the case, a skilled hunter-archer can place an arrow at any distance he chooses, whether he can see the target or not. He notionally conceives the target as being 200 yards away and holds his bow at the correct elevation accordingly. Since arrows will have a high trajectory at extreme ranges, an archer can target enemy troops in melee with his own side provided he is a good distance away and able to lob his arrows in at steep angles. It would require training, but it could be done.
Thanks, Justin: as a matter of fact, this post seems to pretty much answer the original question!
Picking up on Patrick's quoted section on Pharsalus
1) Clearly both sides expect to run towards each other releasing javelins.
2) it is highly likely that at a certain distance pila are released mutually. Of course, if the enemy were Celts standing still the run up would start that much closer to the enemy.
3) after release one would expect the lines to run into one another , but in good order, because we are told that if the legionaries had to run double distance they would be disordered.
4) as Mark G and I have said pretty clearly in Slingshot this is a tightly controlled process. The Pompeians bet is that, once commenced, the Caesarians are on autopilot and will have to keep running, but they are not, their centurions halt them and recommence the procedure.
5) I don't think that this is an argument for throwing at a greater distance because here we have two bodies that are supposed o close mutually and rapidly. As the point about running further causing confusion shows, it is important to avoid running too far and thus releasing early at a longer range has no benefit at all. The a in is most likely a disciplined release at a trot at 15 or so yards and then a disciplined move to contact at the same pace. The legion could not thrown and stop.
There are other instances that Patrick can possibly magic up here where closing fast precludes pl
Ilum use, one I think against Ariovistus and one against the Etruscans by. T.he Etruscans?come to
mind
Roy
I think I agree with a couple of posters, overhead shooting is allowed in TDIC because it happened. However I restrict it to stationary troops only.
Yes Romans throw pila but just before combat is joined, not like with bows or even javelins as a missile weapon. The other thing I have done in the latest version of the rules is to allow all troops with missile weapons to shoot during a charge. I figure that if the Romans can throw pila then why should the Gauls not be allowed to throw javelins (note that pila are more effective than javelins)?
Close order troops are only allowed to throw javelins at short range because unlike skirmishers they are assumed not to have many javelins per man, to throw.
I can see arrows coming down from a high trajectory as being more effective as they could then avoid hitting shields. Likewise overhead fire is not aiming particular targets but rather creating a beaten zone of fire and hitting men just comes down to them being unlucky or not.
Quote from: aligern on June 18, 2013, 08:46:16 AM
5) I don't think that this is an argument for throwing at a greater distance because here we have two bodies that are supposed to close mutually and rapidly. As the point about running further causing confusion shows, it is important to avoid running too far and thus releasing early at a longer range has no benefit at all. The aim is most likely a disciplined release at a trot at 15 or so yards and then a disciplined move to contact at the same pace. The legion could not throw and stop.
The point is that both sides have a good run-up prior to throwing as part of the expected standard procedure. We know it is a run-up rather than a walk-up (or trot-up) because continuation would result in disorder (continuing a disciplined trot would not). A run-up adds to the range of a hand-hurled missile weapon. I do not think the re-enactor estimates of c.20 yards for pilum range are based on anything other than throwing from a static position. Ergo, methinks pilum range was greater than this in practice.
Timing may also have been a consideration: closing at a 3 mph walk covers about 1.5 yards per second. Upping this to a 6 mph trot covers 3 yards per second. A good 9 mph run closes at 4.5 yards per second. A pilum would take perhaps one second to fly ten yards (please feel free to replace this with a more accurate figure if known). Its flight is a low parabola, up a bit then level a bit then down a bit to land point-first - each phase taking about one third of the flight time and distance. Two running lines mutually close at 9 yards per second. Releasing pila at 15 yards from the opponent means they will be half-way through their trajectory when the lines close, and will land 7-8 yards behind an 8-deep foe.
One would prefer to release pila at the point where they could fly for three seconds and make contact at the end of that time. Hence one needs to throw when the enemy are at least three seconds away, which means three seconds of pilum flight time and distance plus enemy closure distance. Hence pila need to be launched when a mutually closing enemy is 30+13.5 yards away - 43.5 yards distant. The pila will travel 30 yards and the foe 13.5 yards in the intervening three seconds during which one's own men will have time to draw swords and put up shields against what they are about to receive (the discrepancy of loss at Munda mentioned in Spanish War 31 indicates a possible lack of appreciation of this latter point by Pompey's recruits). In practice, assuming a launch at 45 yards' distance against a mutually closing target is probably sufficient, which suggests beginning the run-up at about 80-85 yards from the foe.
Loosing pila against a stationary opponent would be done at about 30 yards - there is no need to add in a vector for closing. Begin the run-up from about 50 yards away, loose at 30 yards and gravity does the rest. Again, 15 yards could be running into trajectory problems unless the opponent is deployed very deep or one is happy to settle for a weak throw.
That at any rate is my 'take' on that particular subject.
[
Edit: adjusted the closing vector because once pila leave the hand the forward velocity of the thrower no longer counts!]
Hopefully not like these lads then
(http://classicalassociationofwny.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/RomanReenactorsPila.278142625_large.jpg)
But I am not convinced by the 'running throw' of pila. You have two to throw remember then time to draw your sword and prepare to fight. Romans also seem to have been happy to receive enemy charges at the halt.
well those guys have no formation, and clearly not much practice.
If I am releasing a Pila at a run, its not going to trajectory over his head. its going directly at his shield so he is still dealing with that when I jump him with my sword.
I'm with you on something closer to a 30 yard range, but when we know 15 is penetration of Pila range, bugger the high trajectory, its aiming right at him on as flat a trajectory as possible and with as little a chance for him to recover as I can manage.
60 yards is just silly and a waste of effort for a heavy javelin, mutual run up or not.
This is a shot from 60 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoRAGfdkiVA
no one in their right mind is throwing a heavy javelin, while in battle armour and large shield, at that range with any expectation other than to get rid of the damn thing so they can fight properly.
All this extrapolation of range and distance from one incident in one battle is taking it a little too far - and it failed.
That it was so telegraphed as to be obvious to men in the heat of battle suggests it was a very silly idea in the first place - possibly even that Pompey's men had expected Caesars to come with long range Pila only.
It makes me wonder where Pompey got the idea from in the first place - exactly who had he been fighting to think that a mutual charge would produce that?
Yes, thats why I posted it - none of them would make their centurions happy.
But these people have already discussed it
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/20-roman-re-enactment-a-reconstruction/246793-how-do-you-throw-a-pilum.html
QuoteThere seems little point in taking short running steps to throw the pilum. It is better thrown from standstill, allowing more cover from the shield you are holding. The reason to take two steps forward is the nasty buttspike at the rear, which, when you draw back your arm to throw, could impale your buddies in the second rank. So in a closed formation with the enemy closing, two steps are taken forward by the first rank. The arm is drawn back and on command the pilum is unleashed with a mighty heave, using arm, shoulder and abdominal muscles, rotating the body. The second rank can then step up, the first rank lowers themselves behind their shields and blam, second volley rips into the oncoming horde. Formation and shield wall remain unbroken, first two ranks are in position to meet what is left of the incoming charge. The pilum is basicly a short range missile weapon.
Which is all very well, but rather contradicts Caesar's account. And I am inclined to think that Caesar and his men had experience in these things, whatever modern posters might think. Just because classical practice appears to contradict modern logic does not mean modern logic overrules classical sources. (It might overrule some
modern interpretations of classical procedures, but that is a different matter.)
Quote from: Mark G on June 18, 2013, 02:07:06 PM
All this extrapolation of range and distance from one incident in one battle is taking it a little too far - and it failed.
This is the one clear account we have of the procedure, and also of someone thinking they could get clever and change the system. "It failed" presumably refers to the attempt to make a change rather than the procedure itself.
Quote from: Mark G on June 18, 2013, 02:07:06 PM
It makes me wonder where Pompey got the idea from in the first place - exactly who had he been fighting to think that a mutual charge would produce that?
From previous experience. His most recent campaigns were in Spain, where both sides seem to have used a fairly similar approach, not least because Sertorius had trained the Spaniards to fight Roman-fashion.
We might wish to remember when dealing with passages of this nature that the Romans had been doing what they were doing as life-and-death business on a large scale for a considerable period of time, not as an occasional hobby. If running up worked, they would do it. If it did not, they would not, and we would not have that passage in Caesar.
I keep saying the same thing here, but here goes again.
When you are getting lines of men to do something all together have to have RYTHM. It is like the Landsknechts who advance
I'd to a chant of Hut Dich Baur ich Komm! That kept all at the same pace. The Teutones? Advance chanting and leaping in the air together. The Byzantines have a challenge and response 'Deus!' Then response 'Nobiscum! ' the object is to terrify the enemy by arriving together in a co ordinated mass.
It is clear from accounts in Livy and particularly Caesar that the Romans come in at a pace that would be too fast for pilum throwing if one side was to run. That is to say, it is fine if one side is standing still, or both do a measured pace, but if both run then there will not be time for throwing pila. That dies not preclude one or both sides throwing pila and not making contact. Though you all know that I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that contact after a round of pila and the flurries, withdrawals and repeat attacks re the normative Roman method.
Moving whist throwing is hugely preferable to standing still and throwing. Far greater impetus is given to the pilum. That does not mean that they run, rather a few steps stand jog and then in with the sword will give the best combination.
If the Romans stopped to throw pila then Pompey's action at Pharsalus would be pointless . He is expecting Caesar's men to come in at least at a jog because he knows that is the usual method.
And no, Pompey is not an idiot. He is given and accepts advice to do this and thinks that it will help compensate for the fact that his legionaries are not as experienced as Carsar's and will be outfaced in the coming together of lines. His halting trick is a measure to redress the balance and it would have worked had not Caesar's men recognised what was happening and paused.
Roy
And Caesar keeps saying the same thing, and it is going to be even harder to get a change of mind out of him. ;)
"Between the two armies, there was an interval sufficient for the onset: but Pompey had given his troops orders to keep their ground, that Caesar's army might have all that way to run. This he is said to have done by the advice of C. Triarius, that the enemy's ranks might be broken and themselves put out of breath, by having so far to run; of which disorder he hoped to make an advantage. He was besides of opinion, that our javelins would have less effect, by the troops continuing in their post, than if they sprung forward at the very time they were launched; and as the soldiers would have twice as far to run as usual, they must be weary and breathless by the time they came up with the first line." - Caesar, De Bello Civili, III.92.
Let us look at this in detail, with the little grey cells alert for clues.
Clue no.1: " ... that Caesar's army might have all that way to run."
Clue no.2: " ... that the enemy's ranks might be broken and themselves put out of breath"
Clue no.3: " ... of which disorder he hoped to make an advantage."
Clue no.4: " ... the soldiers would have twice as far to run as usual"
Clue no.5: " ... they must be weary and breathless by the time they came up with the first line."
This does not look or sound like "a few steps, stand, jog and then in with the sword". This sounds like a sprint, or what we in wargaming circles call a charge. ;D
Sorry, but it is not as print Patrick. That would indeed lead to disorder. It has to be a controlled advance.
Look at the action against Ariovistus, there both sides come on fast and there is no time for pila.
Moreover, at Pharsalus Caesar,s men start their 'run'and yet their commanders can stop them and re establish order. If they were sprinting then no way could they do that.
A few Watersoniimight run eagerly out front,but it fits better with the evidence if the whole machine rolls forward irresistibly, but in control. I must emphasise in control.. Jogging twenty yards, throwing and then doing7.5 more yards is fine. However, jogging 50 yards in full kit is going to get men disordered. However, the greatest because of disorder will be that they expected to throwaftertwenty yards and had to reconfigure to throw after more like forty.
If the Romans sprint they will crash into the enemy... I just don't see that as the result of advance, though it would make an othismos look a bit wussy
Roy
Indeed but its silly. Caesars troops would have had to have moved all the way from their starting point to a Pompeys lines. A few yards would not have made a difference to tiredness.
Now what I can believe is that Caesars troop commanders would have ordered a charge anticipating an equal charge by Pompeys troops (experienced commanders). Pompey believed that the troop commanders would not have had sufficient control to stop the troops and re-order them (which of course they did). That shows the great control that Caesars commanders had over their troops.
I am even going to say that at that range neither side would be throwing their pila, as to halt the troops and get them to prepare to charge again whilst under fire seems too much to ask of anyone.
Which seems to be what happened
Quote[3.93] But our men, when the signal was given, rushed forward with their javelins ready to be launched, but perceiving that Pompey's men did not run to meet their charge, having acquired experience by custom, and being practised in former battles, they of their own accord repressed their speed, and halted almost midway; that they might not come up with the enemy when their strength was exhausted, and after a short respite they again renewed their course, and threw their javelins, and instantly drew their swords, as Caesar had ordered them. Nor did Pompey's men fail in this crisis, for they received our javelins, stood our charge, and maintained their ranks; and having launched their javelins, had recourse to their swords.
Sorry I don't trust Caesars writing, looks a lot like propaganda. So 'of their own accord' means do what their officers told them to do and to work had to be all along the line. And if seems from that that the pila were not thrown until immediately prior to combat. So its throw pila, draw swords and then get into combat.
And of course Pompeys troops received at the halt, so no charge required to throw pila.
just look again at the 60 yards kick on the video.
its too far Patrick.
I am worried that you miss the point about strength being exhausted Justin. It Is not that the troops are tired out, only momentarily out of breath, but , having trotted double distance they will arrive ragged , disordered and just that bit less energetic than their opponents. Most importantly Pompey's men will have imposed their plan upon their opponents and have the psychological edge.
I too would not totally trust Caesar, but only where what he says directly impacts upon his reputation. Over a technical matter such as this I expect Caesar or Hirtius to have it aright because their audience appreciates such minor technical points. Much Roman historicity military writing very knowingly alludes to such ,minor, but important military information. There is a great emphasis on the commander and on him having inspired and original thought, but within a traditional framework. So pila pinning the shields of the close formed Helvetii is probably a traditional, 'does what it says on the tin' reference, whereas mounting the tenth legion on Gallic cavalry horses is a matter of innovation and a thoroughly traditional distrust of foreign auxiliaries.
Here we have a story that lots of senior people on both sides would have had e pertinence of. Caesar is not going to invent such a thing.
I would accept that this story is paired with that of the legionary antesignani on the right wing. Pompey is in both shown to be a clever general, but Caesar is cleverer.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on June 18, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
Sorry, but it is not as print Patrick. That would indeed lead to disorder. It has to be a controlled advance.
Look at the action against Ariovistus, there both sides come on fast and there is no time for pila.
Indeed, not a 'controlled advance' by
either side. "
Our troops attacked with such vigour when the signal was given, and the enemy also dashed forward so suddenly and swiftly, that there was no time to throw pila at them."
So the Romans, not just the Germans, attack 'with vigour'. There is a comparatively small window of opportunity for chucking while charging, and with the vector changing faster than usual it was missed.
So what actually stopped the Romans from halting and throwing their pila, or at least adopting a controlled advance, if that is how it should be done?
Quote from: aligern on June 18, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
Moreover, at Pharsalus Caesar's men start their 'run' and yet their commanders can stop them and re establish order. If they were sprinting then no way could they do that.
That is what Triarius and Pompey thought.
Yet it was not the commanders but the fact that Caesar's men's sensed that something was not right which aborted the charge.
"
Our men, on the signal, ran forwards with javelins ready, but when they observed that Pompey's men were not running to meet them, thanks to the practical experience and training they had had in earlier battles, they checked their charge and halted about half-way, so as not to approach worn out. Then after a short interval they renewed the charge, threw their pila and, as ordered by Caesar, quickly drew their swords."
Quote from: aligern on June 18, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
A few Watersonii might run eagerly out front, but it fits better with the evidence if the whole machine rolls forward irresistibly, but in control. I must emphasise in control.. Jogging twenty yards, throwing and then doing 7.5 more yards is fine. However, jogging 50 yards in full kit is going to get men disordered. However, the greatest cause of disorder will be that they expected to throw after twenty yards and had to reconfigure to throw after more like forty.
Caesar emphasises speed, which in his account is not incompatible with control. His troops could do things fast because they were familiar with what had to be done.
On ranges, I made an initial error in counting the closing vector as 57 yards: actually, after pila leave hands, one does not count the velocity of the thrower towards the closing vector, so it works out as hurling at 43-44 yards rather than 60. The pila themselves travel about 30 yards (not 60) before encountering their oncoming target, which has closed with its own vector in the meantime.
With a 44-yard (approx) hurling distance, the pila will travel 30 yards in the time it takes for the opposition to travel 13.5 yards (and then the two will meet), but meanwhile one's own troops have also covered 13.5 yards, so the pila hit when the two sides are 44-27 = 17 yards away, a distance that will be closed in about two seconds. The total time of five seconds from hurling of pila to the lines meeting is sufficient for drawing swords and getting ready to thump into the enemy line.
There will not be enough time for another pila volley unless one's chaps are really quick with the second pilum, which puts us in mind of the lighter and longer-ranged pila that comprised 50% of the legionary's missile supply. These would have to be thrown a couple of seconds earlier, so with the closing lines at least 18 yards further apart than for the volley of heavies. This suggests a range of c.50 yards for the lighter pilum, with discharge between closing lines at a range of 50 yards plus closure time of 5 seconds adding 5x4.5 = 22.5 yards, hence both sides throw at c.72.5 yards separation and keep closing. Then both sides throw the heavies at c.45 yards separation, draw swords and weigh in.
This consideration of separation distances and closing vectors is vital on the battlefield. Julian the Apostate used it to avoid Persian arrows (indirect shooting) by having his troops speed up their rate of closure each time the Persians shot. The 'window' for pila discharge when both sides were closing was a very narrow one, and Ariovistus' men's unusually rapid advance resulted in it being missed.
Quote from: aligern on June 18, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
If the Romans sprint they will crash into the enemy... I just don't see that as the result of advance, though it would make an othismos look a bit wussy
Like: " ...
many of our soldiers actually threw themselves on the wall of shields confronting them, wrenched the shields out of the enemy's hands and stabbed them from above"? Yes, it does make othismos look a bit wussy. :)
To round out the general subject of pila-throwing, it was eminently possible to throw at the halt: Caesar's men did this when attacked by the Nervii. What is not sensible is to try and impose one rule for all situations: if waiting in a nice defensive position, Caesar's men would stay put and throw from the halt, adjusting their vector accordingly. If charging, they would throw on the run, timing the discharge appropriately.
QuoteI am worried that you miss the point about strength being exhausted Justin. It Is not that the troops are tired out, only momentarily out of breath, but , having trotted double distance they will arrive ragged , disordered and just that bit less energetic than their opponents. Most importantly Pompey's men will have imposed their plan upon their opponents and have the psychological edge.
I don't know if I am disagreeing but I don't see tiredness as a problem. Quite a short distance, so no problem there. Disorder very probably, hence the stop, re-order and continue (and success). Note that there also seems to be another stop to throw pila before the going in with the charge, I can imagine a controlled volley of pila being more effective than a ragged one.
So how does that work in TDIC. Unformed would be a significant disadvantage, Caesars legions hitting on 1 or 2's in the first round of combat, 1's in subsequent rounds. Pompeys (stationary) troops hitting on 1, 2 or 3's. Caesars troops getting the charge in but without being disordered, means that they would be hitting on 1, 2, 3 or 4's, a slight advantage. Make Caesars legonaries veterans then it becomes 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5's!
Thank you for using the Ariovistus quote Patrick, I take it to prove that running in so fast is highly unusual. So unusual that it prevents pila thowing and pila throwing must be the norm. In fact it must be so much the norm and a regular drill at a regular pace and NOT a matter of stopping to throw that Pompey can make a plan based pon the predicted norm responses of Caesar's men!
Lthe Ariovistus quote is interesting because there is another description of that battle. It might be in Plutarch. Anyhow, in that other account the Germans and Romans fight and the Germans become so exhausted that all that they can do is stand protected by their shields. I suggest that this is because they do not have line relief whereas the Romans do. The leaping on them to pull shields away is done at this later stage of the battle. At first I dismissed that account as being later, but it did all make sense. Caesar's acount would then be seen as rather truncated, cut down to the point where the staged development of the battle is missed.
The description of Pharsalus makes it more likely that pila were thrown when moving. Pompey's trick would not work if the legion stops to throw. It would be obvious that the opposing force was out of range. It only makes sense if the Caesarian legionaries are committed o a process in which they are loosed from control and the RYTHM of the advance and throw phase takes over.
As for them stopping again to throw incroyable mon brave! They throw on the move. Only one pilum is thrown because that is all they take into battle.
As to the example against the Nervii.....well it is an ambush, there is no time for formal deployment and attack, the Rommans are crushed around their standards. Of course they throw at the halt , but we cannot extrapolate that incident into a normal tactical drill.
Could you look at the almost battle against the Treveri? I think that's the one that has the Gauls running before the Romans can get to them and might have something to say.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
Thank you for using the Ariovistus quote Patrick, I take it to prove that running in so fast is highly unusual. So unusual that it prevents pila thowing and pila throwing must be the norm. In fact it must be so much the norm and a regular drill at a regular pace and NOT a matter of stopping to throw that Pompey can make a plan based upon the predicted norm responses of Caesar's men!
Yes, Caesar's men would be expecting opponents to close at Roman charge speed, and discovered that German charge speed was a bit faster! It seems to have been enough to put them off their stroke.
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
The Ariovistus quote is interesting because there is another description of that battle. It might be in Plutarch. Anyhow, in that other account the Germans and Romans fight and the Germans become so exhausted that all that they can do is stand protected by their shields. I suggest that this is because they do not have line relief whereas the Romans do. The leaping on them to pull shields away is done at this later stage of the battle. At first I dismissed that account as being later, but it did all make sense. Caesar's account would then be seen as rather truncated, cut down to the point where the staged development of the battle is missed.
Not in Plutarch:
"
When Caesar learned this, and saw that the Germans kept quiet, he decided that it was a good plan to engage them while they were out of heart, rather than to sit still and wait for their time. [5] So, by attacking their entrenchments and the hills on which they were encamped, he irritated them and incited them to come down in anger and fight the issue out. They were signally routed, and Caesar pursued them a distance of four hundred furlongs, as far as the Rhine, and filled all the intervening plain with dead bodies and spoils."
And that is Plutarch's description of the entire battle. The action actually sounds like the closing stages of the battle of Sentinum in 295 BC, when the Gauls had attacked once too often and ... let Livy tell the story.
" ...
the Gauls, and especially the press about the body of the consul, as though deprived of reason, were darting their javelins at random and without effect, while some were in a daze, and could neither fight nor run away ... and so, though the Gauls stood crowded together with their shields interlocked in front of them, and it looked no easy battle at close quarters, the lieutenants bade their men gather up the pila that were scattered about on the ground between the hostile lines and cast them against the testudo of their enemies; and as many of these missiles stuck fast in the shields and now and then one penetrated a soldier's body, their phalanx was broken up —many falling, though unwounded, as if they had been stunned." - Livy X.29.2 and 6-7
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
The description of Pharsalus makes it more likely that pila were thrown when moving. Pompey's trick would not work if the legion stops to throw. It would be obvious that the opposing force was out of range. It only makes sense if the Caesarian legionaries are committed o a process in which they are loosed from control and the RYTHM of the advance and throw phase takes over.
As for them stopping again to throw incroyable mon brave! They throw on the move. Only one pilum is thrown because that is all they take into battle.
Indeed, they throw without stopping. Definitely agreed. But two pila would be possible, especially for men with much experience and plenty of practice. To take a rate-of-shooting example
really out of period, the BEF in 1914 had many men who could fire 30 rounds a minute with a Lee-Enfield, which is impossible if you have to think about it (I have tried). If you have the rhythm, it becomes possible.
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
As to the example against the Nervii.....well it is an ambush, there is no time for formal deployment and attack, the Rommans are crushed around their standards. Of course they throw at the halt , but we cannot extrapolate that incident into a normal tactical drill.
Could you look at the almost battle against the Treveri? I think that's the one that has the Gauls running before the Romans can get to them and might have something to say.
Treveri. Gallic War VI.8.5-7. Labienus has just finished his speech.
"
At the same time he orders the troops to face about toward the enemy and form in line of battle, and, dispatching a few troops of cavalry as a guard for the baggage, he places the rest of the horse on the wings. Our men, raising a shout, quickly throw their javelins [pila] at the enemy. They, when, contrary to their expectation, they saw those whom they believed to be retreating, advance toward them with threatening banners, were not able to sustain even the charge, and, being put to flight at the first onslaught [primo concursu], sought the nearest woods; Labienus pursuing them with the cavalry, upon a large number being slain, and several taken prisoners, got possession of the state a few days after"
So yes, pila are thrown as part of the advance, or at least that is the impression I get. Conversely, Caesar's account of the battle against the Helvetii gives the impression that the Romans - secure on higher ground - let the Helvetii climb towards them, and then:
"
Caesar, having removed out of sight first his own horse, then those of all, that he might make the danger of all equal, and do away with the hope of flight, after encouraging his men, joined battle. His soldiers hurling their pila from the higher ground, easily broke the enemy's phalanx. That being dispersed [disiecta = disrupted],
they made a charge on them with drawn swords."
Then we get the bit about the Helvetii finding their shields pinned together. The impression I get here is that the Romans waited, then shot while stationary (letting the hill and gravity do the work for them), drew swords and charged, catching the Helvetii while the latter were trying to unpin their shields. The only times I have seen hints of pila discharged while standing rather than running have been when the Romans were comfortably uphill of their opponents.
Great stuff Patrick, but who is it that describes the battle against Ariovistus? Appian? Diio? Thought you would be the one to know.
Clearly the Caesarian Romans have a repertoire of techniques, but how was the appropriate response on the day chosen and controlled. As was Sid earlier. For Pompey to try the trick suggested bt Triarius he must have a very good idea of what the Caesaians are going to do. MayhP it is amateur of the ground. When Marius crushes the Teutones he seeks higher ground and thus it would be less appropriate to charge down and better to throw from on high and then push with the shield at the Teutones as they climb up.
That prompts a thought. Being thrown from higher ground gives pila that extra penetration, without that extra Oomph perhaps a run is necessary to get the extra penetration.
Looking at the picture of reenactors posted earlier their range is very short and they will not have much power behind the throw.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 09:25:04 PM
Great stuff Patrick, but who is it that describes the battle against Ariovistus? Appian? Dio? Thought you would be the one to know.
As far as I know it is Cassius Dio, but the Lacus Curtius site is not letting me connect (again) so I cannot confirm. Appian just says:
"
For, although the Germans made a tremendous rush and pushed the legions back a short distance, the Romans kept their ranks unbroken, and outmanœuvred [katestrategoun]
them, and eventually slew 800000 [oktakismurious]
of them." (That figure made me blink: Caesar's own account makes no such claim.)
Cassius Dio's account is somewhere towards the end of Book 38. I have seen a Greek text with French translation which suggests that Roy's memory is on the right track. :)
I would certainly go along with the idea that the Romans trained for pila-throwing in a number of different terrain situations, with an optimum technique for each. Putting that much thought and exercise into using one weapon might explain why they did not branch out into bows, darts etc. until the late Empire, and why Arrian's
Ektaxis kata Alanon (OB against the Alans) has to be explained in detail: it is a departure from what Caesar's men had been doing, which was presumably still standard Roman practice.
Quote from: aligern on June 19, 2013, 09:25:04 PM
That prompts a thought. Being thrown from higher ground gives pila that extra penetration, without that extra Oomph perhaps a run is necessary to get the extra penetration.
Interesting thought. There is a quote I seem to remember, perhaps in Frontinus, about missiles flung on the level lacking penetration. There is certainly one in Ammianus (XIX.5.8 ) when he describes how the defenders of Amida, infuriated by the doings of a deserter:
" ...
hurled their various missiles with all their strength, as if they were charging on level ground ..."
So yes, it does look as if on the level a good charge was used to add what gravity did naturally against a downhill opponent.
I am going to say that I think with Marius at Aquae Sextiae, its a matter of numbers. A charge might help with victory against you against some of the tribesmen but there are an awful lot to kill. So better to take up a position that remains an advantage however many waves come at you.