The Saxon Shore System

[Imperial Dave]

keeping a fleet going is expensive in terms of money and manpower and the 4th century is the main melting pot for change in Britain

[Justin Swanton]

keeping a fleet going is expensive in terms of money and manpower and the 4th century is the main melting pot for change in Britain

The fleet would have been scrapped only because there was no longer any use for it. I doubt it was just about money - that would explain a smaller fleet but not its complete disappearance. Something else changed in the mid-200s. I suspect a complete abandonment of an imperial offensive policy (requiring a support fleet for the army) plus the annihilation of the lowland Scottish tribes by Severus (no more raiding by them) would go a long way towards explaining it.

[Imperial Dave]

of course, definitely part of it. Trouble is, once you disband something its a real bugger to reraise it in terms of cost and training so a bit both I suspect

[aligern]

The trouble with fleets is that they rot. Thus, there might be a fleet of fifty ships with ten ships needing renewal or major works every gear. If the money runs out to repair and replace ships and pay crews it declines in five years into a ten ship core which is too small to cover the task and so becomes a victim of the declining budget. Military units likewise decline quite quickly once the pay stops coming.  At least with the army one can convert the soldiers to farmers who can supply themselves ( Thats what foederati do). However a fleet cannot easily convert unless you can dragoon trading vessels into serving.  No doubt Holly's fleet does not patrol in the mackerel season😀
Roy

[aligern]

What is interesting about the Saxon Shore forts is their size.  These things are huge. Porchester castle is inside one, its a reasonable sized castle, enough to hold a garrison and protect a squadron of ships.  Burgh  castle would need a large number of men to garrison it  and there are several down each coast. The Romans could and on the Danube did, build smaller forts . to support ships.
Perhaps its a matter of hosting cavalry units, though I don't think archaeology insude these large enclosyres particularly supports that.
Why so big?
Roy

[Imperial Dave]

a good question re size. Possibly part of it was outward showing of power and part of it was the ability to act like a later Saxon Burgh whereby if things got desperate, they were a staging post and rallying point for retaking invaded areas....?

[Jim Webster]

Or even a modern consensus.

What's that?

where there's only one book everybody says is wrong 

[Imperial Dave]

a single book can be very dangerous....

[Jim Webster]

a single book can be very dangerous....

It can but sometimes somebody writes one and that becomes the one you have to disprove 

[Erpingham]

a good question re size. Possibly part of it was outward showing of power and part of it was the ability to act like a later Saxon Burgh whereby if things got desperate, they were a staging post and rallying point for retaking invaded areas....?

A couple of possibilities are they were designed as military communities from the start, so would be expected to have families etc. within them, not just soldiers.  Another possibility is they were thinly staffed forward operating bases for mobile units stationed elsewhere.  Have the interiors of many of them been dug?  I know with some it is difficult because they actually have a long period of continuous use which has messed with the earlier archaeology.

[Jim Webster]

a good question re size. Possibly part of it was outward showing of power and part of it was the ability to act like a later Saxon Burgh whereby if things got desperate, they were a staging post and rallying point for retaking invaded areas....?

A couple of possibilities are they were designed as military communities from the start, so would be expected to have families etc. within them, not just soldiers.  Another possibility is they were thinly staffed forward operating bases for mobile units stationed elsewhere.  Have the interiors of many of them been dug?  I know with some it is difficult because they actually have a long period of continuous use which has messed with the earlier archaeology.

I've heard some suggest that some of them were for warehousing supplies brought in (or taken out) by sea.

One problem with a large perimeter is that it takes more men to defend it, so I think we have to ask whether the walls were to keep out 'inquisitive children, straying livestock etc' or whether they were a serious fortification which expected it might have to face a siege. If it is the latter than it has to be assumed there would be men based there.

[aligern]

The enceinte on these forts  is from 700 to 900 metres. Tgat's a lot if men for a Late Roman unit if say Limitanei, but more  manageable if you can count on  supplying locals from the hinterland.
There have been digs at these sites, but only Portchester has been published, a common frustration with archaeology.
Roy

[Anton]

a good question re size. Possibly part of it was outward showing of power and part of it was the ability to act like a later Saxon Burgh whereby if things got desperate, they were a staging post and rallying point for retaking invaded areas....?

A couple of possibilities are they were designed as military communities from the start, so would be expected to have families etc. within them, not just soldiers.  Another possibility is they were thinly staffed forward operating bases for mobile units stationed elsewhere.  Have the interiors of many of them been dug?  I know with some it is difficult because they actually have a long period of continuous use which has messed with the earlier archaeology.

I've heard some suggest that some of them were for warehousing supplies brought in (or taken out) by sea.

One problem with a large perimeter is that it takes more men to defend it, so I think we have to ask whether the walls were to keep out 'inquisitive children, straying livestock etc' or whether they were a serious fortification which expected it might have to face a siege. If it is the latter than it has to be assumed there would be men based there.

I've seen the theory that they were used to store grain exports for the army in Gaul.  Such exports were real enough and nearer Britannia, if you know what I mean, was very fertile.  There might be something to it.

[Imperial Dave]

it makes sense on a few fronts. multiuse sites - depots, strongpoints, operating bases, rally points and visible deterrents

[Jim Webster]

it makes sense on a few fronts. multiuse sites - depots, strongpoints, operating bases, rally points and visible deterrents

The problem is, when you're building the damned thing, there is a cost, which is obviously larger if it's bigger. So even if the main cost is man-hours etc, you're going to have a good use in mind for the space. If other things come along later, that's fine.

I'd say that if they were visible deterrents they'd be made particularly imposing. I suppose you could do a lot with whitewash which of course has long gone.
I think if we go for depot and operating bases, we get 'strong point' and 'rally point' thrown in free by the very nature of the place being there