SoA Forums

History => Ancient and Medieval History => Weapons and Tactics => Topic started by: Erpingham on September 06, 2023, 12:16:09 PM

Title: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Erpingham on September 06, 2023, 12:16:09 PM
Nice find of well preserved Roman swords in the Dead Sea caves.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66728207
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Nick Harbud on September 06, 2023, 12:20:20 PM
Nice view from the cave entrance too!  One wonders how much effort was involved in caching the weapons there nearly 2,000 years ago?

 ???
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Duncan Head on September 06, 2023, 12:40:03 PM
If it is indeed from the 130s, that's a very early ring-pommel sword:

"This type of sword originated around the mid-second century AD..." (https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/H_2004-0301-1)

Makes it a very interesting find.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Imperial Dave on September 06, 2023, 12:59:35 PM
oooh nice
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: nikgaukroger on September 06, 2023, 01:08:58 PM
I think the dating of the finds is still to be decided - https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/376611 - there is always a tendency to try and match finds to major historical events and it doesn't always work out that way.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: nikgaukroger on September 06, 2023, 01:40:16 PM
Also, over on Twitter, the Roman Military Equipment account (official account of the book  ;) ) has said that the pilum find is a square sectioned spear head or possibly a catapult bolt.

https://twitter.com/EquipmentRoman/status/1699393808142655533
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Erpingham on September 07, 2023, 12:15:24 PM
This report (https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/ancient-weapons-cache-judean-desert-scli-intl-scn/index.html) has a good picture of the so-called pilum head. It seems to lack the distinctive features of a pilum - small head and long shaft.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Jon Freitag on September 07, 2023, 12:59:07 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on September 07, 2023, 12:15:24 PMThis report (https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/ancient-weapons-cache-judean-desert-scli-intl-scn/index.html) has a good picture of the so-called pilum head. It seems to lack the distinctive features of a pilum - small head and long shaft.
This looks much more like a lance/spear head to me.  Could this be of Spanish origin?
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Duncan Head on September 07, 2023, 02:15:02 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on September 07, 2023, 12:15:24 PMThis report (https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/ancient-weapons-cache-judean-desert-scli-intl-scn/index.html) has a good picture of the so-called pilum head. It seems to lack the distinctive features of a pilum - small head and long shaft.
Looks almost like a hoplite spear's butt-spike.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Imperial Dave on September 07, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
I tend to agree with you Duncan. Looks like a sauroter to me

https://sites.psu.edu/cams180hoplite/equipment/spear/
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Erpingham on September 07, 2023, 02:55:00 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on September 07, 2023, 02:15:02 PMLooks almost like a hoplite spear's butt-spike.

Thank goodness you said that.  Like Dave, I thought that, but thought the Israeli archaeology service wouldn't make such a mistake.  But with your breadth of knowledge, for you to think it, certainly opens it up.  However, perhaps we are looking at re-use as a spear point?  If you are a guerilla stashing what weapons you can get, make do and mend might be where you are at.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Duncan Head on September 07, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
I don't know how likely it is to be a butt-spike, though, considering the apparent date. Roman spears, as far as I know, tend to have small "shoes" or else no butt-metalwork at all. Could it be something ceremonial, or a posh officer's weapon? It certainly looks like a sauroter, square cross-section and looking uncertain as to how sharp the point ever was, but I don't know how likely it is to actually be one.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: nikgaukroger on September 07, 2023, 06:48:10 PM
I'll stick with the Roman Military Equipment view as its from such an authoritative source.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: nikgaukroger on September 07, 2023, 08:22:03 PM
There is even a preliminary report available already  ;D

https://www.academia.edu/106367108/Preliminary_Insights_following_the_Recovery_of_a_Cache_of_Roman_Period_Weaponry_from_the_Cave_of_the_Swords?email_work_card=title
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Duncan Head on September 07, 2023, 09:11:37 PM
And if Guy Stiebel is prepared to put his name to an account that calls it a pilum, then that gives me pause for thought...
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: stevenneate on December 15, 2023, 09:01:16 PM
This find has, I believe, been given the accolade of National Geographic's number 1 archaeological find of 2024.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Mark G on December 15, 2023, 09:20:06 PM
Best find of NEXT year,

Crikey, that's confident
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Imperial Dave on December 16, 2023, 07:01:08 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: stevenneate on December 23, 2023, 02:49:14 AM
It's such a great find they have already declared it too good to be beaten next year....
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Imperial Dave on December 23, 2023, 07:16:19 AM
It does good to be organised
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: stevenneate on December 23, 2023, 09:52:33 AM
And I will have to build more Jewish Revolt figures with longer swords.
Title: Re: Roman swords found in Israel
Post by: Imperial Dave on December 23, 2023, 12:09:37 PM
Revolting revolters!

Huzzah!