The Romans in Ireland

[Imperial Dave]

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/what-did-the-romans-ever-do-for-ireland-1.4205876?fbclid=IwAR3n-v1WSeNJSWawtFiqi0iaZpW-J4AQ8mDOnEsO96pBnSm9oJ6EHb_oZhI#.Xn033xp8t5g.facebook

Interesting article and obviously not an in depth treatise. Perhaps Mick could recommend further reading or info....?

[Mick Hession]

I'm more comfortable with later periods where we have written records: I suspect Stephen is better informed.

I did read Roman Ireland by Vittorio Martino a few years back but was unimpressed:he has a tendency to draw significant conclusions from isolated finds -  from memory, he reconstructs an entire Roman campaign in Munster on the basis of two artefacts. Most Roman finds are on the coast or at high status sites which to me indicates trade goods rather than any sort of military involvement.

The promontory site mentioned is sometimes stated to be a Roman fort site because it's a rectangular feature in which Roman artefacts have been found, but the landward fortifications are fairly typical of other Irish sites.

Irish mythology has several tales where late prehistoric kings / dynasties campaign in Britain or Gaul and IIRC one King (Nath I) is said to have died in the Alps which if true - and that is a big if - might indicate service as a foederatus. There are no direct accounts of Romans fighting in Ireland though Phil Barker thought that an episode in the Tain where Cu Chulainn was beaten by the sons of Calatin, who fought in unison, might be a reference to Auxilia palatina. I thought this far-fetched initially but early Irish, a Q-Celtic language, rendered "P" as "C" so he may have had a point after all. The language had changed by St Patrick's time (traditionally mid-5th century, though that's disputed) otherwise he would be St Catrick

Cheers
Mick


AThe Tain has an episode in which Cu Chulainn is beaten by Calatin and his sons who fight in unison. Phil Barker

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the reply Mick, really very interesting and useful for me. Its not something I know very much about or at least have spent much time looking at

[Duncan Head]

And when Calatin arrived at the place where Cuchulain was, they forthwith hurled their nine and twenty spears, and not one of them went past him by a misthrow. Cuchulain played the edge-feat with his shield, so that all the spears sank up to their middles into the shield. But for all that, theirs was no erring cast, not one of the spears was blooded or reddened upon him.

Thereupon Cuchulain drew his sword from the sheath of the Badb, to cut away the weapons and lighten the shield that was on him.

Clearly Calatin and his sons were using pila, as per a recent thread. Must have been Romans after all 

[Anton]

It's my favourite subject at the moment. 

I won't be shelling out for Turtle's book though.  I don't think there is any evidence of the Irish trading slaves into Britannia.  Dogs, garments and leather being mentioned are all I can recall.  As Mick indicates  the infamous 'Roman Fort' wasn't a fort at all.  It seems to have been a prestige Irish trading site serving commerce with Britannia.  There was a treaty in place with Rome and Charles-Edwards thinks the trade was in Irish hands. The rulers of Briga seem to have invested in Roman merchant vessels. 

Jim Mallory's In Search of the Irish Dreamtime is interesting.  He tried to match the Scéla, he prefers Scéla to Saga because who won at Clontarf? stories with what archaeology is telling us.  His take was that the stories reflect the 3rd and 4th centuries AD onwards -though some references were older.  Koch thinks there is an underlying older strand too.

I like Charles-Edwards take on how proximity to the Empire had a transformative effect on Ireland and the Irish.  He sees the old tribal structures falling to the new warrior dynasties of the Uí and the Síl (sons and grandsons of named martial founders).  These themselves come into being because of the opportunities provided by proximity to the Empire.  Peter Heather describes a similar process on the other Imperial boundaries.

What does strike me is that the new Irish dynasties seem to have deliberately chosen to emulate aspects of Roman military practice. In Britannia the inscribed stone habit is mainly a military one.  I tend to see the development of Ogham in that light.  I'd also note that all but one of the Ogham stones we find in Britannia are in the military zone.  I think there was a relationship between the Irish and the Roman military but I'm unsure when it began. Possibly the aftermath of the Great Raid of 368 was the catalyst.  Later it becomes clearer as per Rance's Irish Federates.  Also we have the dynasties claiming descent from Maxim Wledig.  It looks to me like a process.

I'm firmly in the early Patrick camp at the moment.  I tend to see the protracted conversion as a top down initiative sponsored by the very same Uí and Síl dynasties who were prospering because of proximity to the Empire.  The traditional learned strata of the nemed (sacred) classes seem to have expended a great deal of energy taming the new dynasties and bringing them within the law.  They managed to do it at the cost of trading Druids for Clerics and codifying the law in a series of texts.  Fergus Kelly and Nerys Patterson are good on the process and its results.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks Stephen, helps me to appreciate the early period a bit more. I'll have to go back a reread Charles-Edwards although the first time I did it, I found him to be a bit 'chewy'

[Anton]

It's worth sticking with him it was his lifetimes work.  The other thing I should have mentioned is that a number of Latin loan words enter the Irish language at this time almost all of them are military words.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the encouragement Stephen. I put it down as I was struggling to maintain my enthusiasm but times have changed since then!