Mysia

[Dave Knight]

Thinking further about the Argonauts'  opponents could anyone help with information on the Mysians above and beyond what Alistair McBeath had in his Slingshot article?

[Jim Webster]

I've got the book Armies of the Greek and Persian Wars

The attachments show his take

[Dave Knight]

Thanks Jim

[Duncan Head]

There's an article which suggests that the infantry with javelins and round shields on the Can Sarcophagus are Mysians. I haven't read the Mysian article but it presumably draws at least in part on the same brief Herodotos description as Richard Nelson used in the reconstruction Jim posted:

The Mysians had upon their heads native helmets, and they bore small shields (aspidas de mikras) and used javelins burnt at the point.

Aischylos in the Persians also refers to "Mysian akontistai", so there is a clear impression that the 5th-century Mysians were javelin-throwers, but not much on how they looked unless you accept the Can identification. And it's all, of course, a few centuries later than the Argonauts.

Edit: And apparently there's at least one reference (in Aristophanes) to a "Mysian cap" - pilidion, diminutive of pilos - which might be similar to the better-known "Phrygian cap" - see here.

[aligern]

Are Mysians Thracians, like the Bythinians?

[Duncan Head]

No - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysian_language

[Patrick Waterson]

Insofar as our sources could judge, Mysians were Lydian colonists who may have to some extent intermarried with the Phyrgian locals and the language reflected this.  Their tongue also struck some as reminiscent of the Paeonian language, perhaps suggesting that Paeonians may also have been a part of the Lydian diaspora mentioned in Herodotus I.94 or may have parted ways on some other, perhaps previous, occasion.

One might stretch this to maybe allow use of Lydian javelinmen (akontistai) to represent pre-Achaemenid Mysians.

There's an article which suggests that the infantry with javelins and round shields on the Can Sarcophagus are Mysians. I haven't read the Mysian article but it presumably draws at least in part on the same brief Herodotos description as Richard Nelson used in the reconstruction Jim posted:

The cavalryman's armour on the sarcophagus is interesting, particularly the shoulder protection.  It seems to be an alternative approach to Xenophon's:

"But the right hand must be raised when the man intends to fling his javelin or strike a blow. Consequently that portion of the breastplate that hinders him in doing that should be removed; and in place of it there should be detachable flaps at the joints, in order that, when the arm is elevated, they may open correspondingly, and may close when it is lowered. [7] For the fore-arm it seems to us that the piece put over it separately like a greave is better than one that is bound up together with a piece of armour." - Art of Horsemanship 12.6-7

[Duncan Head]

The cavalryman's not identified as a Mysian, so his armour isn't all that relevant here; I'll just say that it seems to be a style that's known on some Achaemenid seals, for IIRC both foot-and horse-warriors, but this sarcophagus was AFAIK the first time it's been seen in any larger-scale format.

If Mysia is to be identified with the Masa/Masha of Hittite documents - not at all certain, but it's an attractive match - then the Mysians have been around for a long time.

[Dave Knight]

Taking the Lydian connection I think that I am right in saying that their armour and weaponry was similar to that of the Greeks.  I could therefore perhaps use Greek figures for bodyguards at least?

[Duncan Head]

I would imagine that's plausible enough for a few Mysians rich enough to afford it. You could always try for the Sardis helmet look, as something a bit different from the Greeks.

[Jim Webster]

I would assume a mixture of purchased, captured or borrowed kit, just not very much of it, they weren't that successful 

[Patrick Waterson]

If Mysia is to be identified with the Masa/Masha of Hittite documents - not at all certain, but it's an attractive match - then the Mysians have been around for a long time.

Masa/Masha could be intended as Msr (Egypt).

"In the twelfth year of Mursili II's reign, his vassal in Mira, Masḫuiluwa, joined in a rebellion against him. Without local support, though, Masḫuiluwa was ultimately forced to flee to Masa, whose leaders turned him over to their Hittite overlord rather than face a military confrontation." - first sentence on p.58 in this paper.  Unfortunately the reference is not footnoted, making it difficult to check against the original source.

Although we do not have possession of a treaty with Egypt prior to that with Ramses II, an unsuccessful rebel in Lycia would be more likely to flee to Egypt than to an area east of the Troad.  Taking ship to Egypt would be a) safer b) faster and c) more likely to find a willing protector - except that it did not work out in this case.

I would assume a mixture of purchased, captured or borrowed kit, just not very much of it, they weren't that successful 

One imagines they would nevertheless try a bit harder for themselves than they did under the Achaemenids.

[Duncan Head]

Masa/Masha could be intended as Msr (Egypt).

Yet Maša (or "Ms", at least) appears in the list of Hittite allies in Ramses' Kadesh inscriptions. And from the Tawagalawas Letter, in a West Anatolian context, "He says this: I will go over to Maša and Karkiya. ... Continue the hostilities against the Hittite king from another country. Do not do it from my country. If you like, go to Maša or Karkiya. The Hittite king and I made an agreement on the matter of the land of Wi[luša]."

[Dave Knight]

I have managed to dig out Armies of the Ancient Near East which has a Phrygian spearman illustrated - I have some figures in my Assyrian box that don't look too dissimilar

[Jim Webster]

scruffy and disreputable infantry, wearing a tunic and carrying a javelin and roundish shield, are always useful figures to buy