Did the Macedonian Phalanx practise othismos with its sarissas?

[PMBardunias]

This is far more likely. Notice by the way, that no one is being killed.  This would be a very low pressure othismos. The kind of packing that probably happened ephemerally in any ranked line combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1v0jB3OswM

Mmmmh...front rank stops. Second rank moves to contact. Third rank moves to contact with second rank, and so on. Entire formation, now stationary, exerts pressure on brick wall. After 15 minutes, individual band members are carried away in strait jackets for psychological evaluation.

Othismos is by definition stationary.  The moment one side takes a step back, the pressure drops and unless they stand again, allowing the enemy ranks to pack up against them, they are simply herded back until they break.

[Justin Swanton]

I can think of two ways of refuting the sarissmos hypothesis: a) proving the phalangite pelta could not endure the strain of 400-odd kg of pressure, and b) proving that an aspis or phalangite pelta would generally be pierced by a sarissa pikehead applied to it with 100kg pressure. Does anyone have numbers?

As I said, the real problem is grip strength.  But here is the only data I have on aspis piercing, from De Groote.

Looking at this again, your reenactors actually got to 368kg when in six ranks and supported by flanking files. Which suggests that 400kg would have been about the maximum force generated. That comes out at 80kg between 5 sarissas or 67kg between 6 sarissas. I found the article by De Groote but can't make up my mind whether it indicates that a rounded aspis or even more rounded Macedonian pelta would be pierced sometimes, half the time or most of the time by a sarissa. Jury's out.

[PMBardunias]

I can think of two ways of refuting the sarissmos hypothesis: a) proving the phalangite pelta could not endure the strain of 400-odd kg of pressure, and b) proving that an aspis or phalangite pelta would generally be pierced by a sarissa pikehead applied to it with 100kg pressure. Does anyone have numbers?

As I said, the real problem is grip strength.  But here is the only data I have on aspis piercing, from De Groote.

Looking at this again, your reenactors actually got to 368kg when in six ranks and supported by flanking files. Which suggests that 400kg would have been about the maximum force generated. That comes out at 80kg between 5 sarissas or 67kg between 6 sarissas. I found the article by De Groote but can't make up my mind whether it indicates that a rounded aspis or even more rounded Macedonian pelta would be pierced sometimes, half the time or most of the time by a sarissa. Jury's out.

What you are thinking of is the physics behind a flying butress- each sarissa acting like a butress to take some % of the mass being transferred throught the file of men, shield to back.  The problem is that they are not static, and balancing the ratio of mass between shield and sarissa would not be as simple as you envision.

The bigger problem is as I posted earlier, no man can grip a 70kg pole for very long.  Just holding a sledge hammer with the shaft verticala nd the head down is tough for extended periods.  Go get 70kg worth of weights and try to hold it up by a rope.

I think what you envision is in fact what probably happened in a push of pike, but it also failed, which is why Smythe tells the front rank to go to the sword. They can't just stand there and be pushed through the pike.  And pikeman held the right hand over the but which would allow them to hold far more weight than gripping the shaft of a sarissa. Perhaps this is why they held the butt in hand.  Anyway, they would get the initial push of pike, but sustained force would have to be far lower than in hoplite othismos.

Let me be clear, they could push, but at far lower levels than hoplites. If this push was through a spear point though, they did not need 400kg of force- especially if the points had already damaged shields in the initial collision.

[Patrick Waterson]

The bigger problem is as I posted earlier, no man can grip a 70kg pole for very long.  Just holding a sledge hammer with the shaft vertical and the head down is tough for extended periods.  Go get 70kg worth of weights and try to hold it up by a rope.

I hope this is not a stupid question, but should we be considering force rather than weight?  There is a difference: a bullet weighs a few grammes but can arrive with enough force to knock a man off his feet.  The weight of the sarissa presumably does not change no matter what force is being applied to the owner.  Granted that at a certain level of strain the user's grip will suffer, but is it quite likely that the point will go through the opponent's shield and perhaps the opponent before that level is actually reached?

Let me be clear, they could push, but at far lower levels than hoplites. If this push was through a spear point though, they did not need 400kg of force- especially if the points had already damaged shields in the initial collision.

Seems fair.  The 64,000 drachma question is of course how much push they actually needed to start things moving.

[PMBardunias]

The bigger problem is as I posted earlier, no man can grip a 70kg pole for very long.  Just holding a sledge hammer with the shaft vertical and the head down is tough for extended periods.  Go get 70kg worth of weights and try to hold it up by a rope.

I hope this is not a stupid question, but should we be considering force rather than weight?  There is a difference: a bullet weighs a few grammes but can arrive with enough force to knock a man off his feet.  The weight of the sarissa presumably does not change no matter what force is being applied to the owner.  Granted that at a certain level of strain the user's grip will suffer, but is it quite likely that the point will go through the opponent's shield and perhaps the opponent before that level is actually reached?

In othismos force and Mass are fairly interchangeable because there is so little net movement.  In something like the collision of an advancing phalanx, velocity will be at its highest, but the physical link between men in file and the synchronicity of push timing will be low.  This is why a crowd-like othismos beats the old-style charging othismos hands down.  A single man cannot generate anything near the force of a stationary but synchronized file at the speeds he can run. 

That said, I am unsure that a man's grip would even suffice to hold onto his pike in the initial collision.  More likely, his arms give way and are propelled back and the shaft slips in his grasp- which is a failure of "linkage".  You guys can test this.  Get a broom stick and walk into a wall holding it like a pike.  See how fast you can do it until everything gives way.  Just watch out the shaft does not splinter.

I can predict that your arms will fail faster when held shoulder high, at the waist, you can brace your forearm across your body.  By the way, all of this changes if you have either a wrist strap on the shaft or a swelling in front of the hand as we see on lances for this reason.

[Justin Swanton]

The bigger problem is as I posted earlier, no man can grip a 70kg pole for very long.  Just holding a sledge hammer with the shaft vertical and the head down is tough for extended periods.  Go get 70kg worth of weights and try to hold it up by a rope.

I hope this is not a stupid question, but should we be considering force rather than weight?  There is a difference: a bullet weighs a few grammes but can arrive with enough force to knock a man off his feet.  The weight of the sarissa presumably does not change no matter what force is being applied to the owner.  Granted that at a certain level of strain the user's grip will suffer, but is it quite likely that the point will go through the opponent's shield and perhaps the opponent before that level is actually reached?

In othismos force and Mass are fairly interchangeable because there is so little net movement.  In something like the collision of an advancing phalanx, velocity will be at its highest, but the physical link between men in file and the synchronicity of push timing will be low.  This is why a crowd-like othismos beats the old-style charging othismos hands down.  A single man cannot generate anything near the force of a stationary but synchronized file at the speeds he can run. 

That said, I am unsure that a man's grip would even suffice to hold onto his pike in the initial collision.  More likely, his arms give way and are propelled back and the shaft slips in his grasp- which is a failure of "linkage".  You guys can test this.  Get a broom stick and walk into a wall holding it like a pike.  See how fast you can do it until everything gives way.  Just watch out the shaft does not splinter.

I can predict that your arms will fail faster when held shoulder high, at the waist, you can brace your forearm across your body.  By the way, all of this changes if you have either a wrist strap on the shaft or a swelling in front of the hand as we see on lances for this reason.

Got it. A pike phalanx didn't have to generate 400kg of force through its sarissas; it just had to generate enough to outpush a hoplite phalanx. Hoplites form up at about 60 cm per file, probably a little more. Phalangites (stated by manuals and Polybios, to be confirmed by reenactors) form up at 48cm per file. That's roughly 3 phalangites for every 2 hoplites. So to equalise pressures, phalangites need to generate 2/3 the pressure of the hoplites, which comes out at 267kg - 53,5kg per sarissa if 5 sarissas, 44,5kg per sarissas if 6 sarissas (slightly more to outpush the hoplites).

Furthermore, it is likely that the hoplites would be generating less forward pressure if the front ranker was pushing a shield against pikeheads. It's a far less stable arrangement than shield against enemy shield. And if the front ranker saw that the pikeheads were penetrating his shield he would almost certainly go into reverse gear, pushing backwards in order to not get skewered. That's something like 40kg pressure removed from the hoplites' combined pressure and added to the phalangites' pressure, so hoplites now at 360kg face phalangites at 267kg - 40kg = 227kg, which comes out at 45.5kg per sarissa for 5 sarissas and 38 kg per sarissa at 6 sarissas. All rather theoretical but it starts looking reasonable.

[Patrick Waterson]

In othismos force and Mass are fairly interchangeable because there is so little net movement.

Thanks, Paul - although have we not already observed that a key characteristic of phalanx vs phalanx interaction is movement?

In something like the collision of an advancing phalanx, velocity will be at its highest, but the physical link between men in file and the synchronicity of push timing will be low.  This is why a crowd-like othismos beats the old-style charging othismos hands down.  A single man cannot generate anything near the force of a stationary but synchronized file at the speeds he can run.

Understood.

That said, I am unsure that a man's grip would even suffice to hold onto his pike in the initial collision.  More likely, his arms give way and are propelled back and the shaft slips in his grasp- which is a failure of "linkage".  You guys can test this.  Get a broom stick and walk into a wall holding it like a pike.  See how fast you can do it until everything gives way.  Just watch out the shaft does not splinter.

For increased veracity, my preference would be to walk, complete with broomstick, into something resembling a person rather than a wall - otherwise one is getting the wrong idea about what happens on the other side of the equation.  (Any volunteers? ) 

I can predict that your arms will fail faster when held shoulder high, at the waist, you can brace your forearm across your body.  By the way, all of this changes if you have either a wrist strap on the shaft or a swelling in front of the hand as we see on lances for this reason.

Mmmmh ... is this actually what happened with Montluc's merry men?  Rightly or wrongly, I think that what happens at the point of a sarissa means we do not run into problems with the grip.  If using blunt sarissas and relying on pressure alone, yes, I see the reasoning that the men exerting force would soon be shaftless; using sharp ones maybe changes the way we should be looking at the interaction.

[PMBardunias]

Got it. A pike phalanx didn't have to generate 400kg of force through its sarissas; it just had to generate enough to outpush a hoplite phalanx. Hoplites form up at about 60 cm per file, probably a little more. Phalangites (stated by manuals and Polybios, to be confirmed by reenactors) form up at 48cm per file. That's roughly 3 phalangites for every 2 hoplites. So to equalise pressures, phalangites need to generate 2/3 the pressure of the hoplites, which comes out at 267kg - 53,5kg per sarissa if 5 sarissas, 44,5kg per sarissas if 6 sarissas (slightly more to outpush the hoplites).

Furthermore, it is likely that the hoplites would be generating less forward pressure if the front ranker was pushing a shield against pikeheads. It's a far less stable arrangement than shield against enemy shield. And if the front ranker saw that the pikeheads were penetrating his shield he would almost certainly go into reverse gear, pushing backwards in order to not get skewered. That's something like 40kg pressure removed from the hoplites' combined pressure and added to the phalangites' pressure, so hoplites now at 360kg face phalangites at 267kg - 40kg = 227kg, which comes out at 45.5kg per sarissa for 5 sarissas and 38 kg per sarissa at 6 sarissas. All rather theoretical but it starts looking reasonable.

You are way overthinking this one. In your vision all of those pikes have to be stuck in the same aspis for this to work the way you calculate.  More likely, I think, and still along the lines of what you wish to see, is that the front rank get's stuck into the enemy aspis, as they did the later scutii, on the initial charge.  The ranks behind the first sarissaphoroi move up behind him just as hoplites would to go to othismos- this happens very fast, as part of the charging motion.  Now they would enter othismos if the opposing hoplites also packed in tight.  But remember, those hoplites are still in their spear fencing phase, where they normally did not pack in tight.  So they probably did not here initially either.  Now the front rank, or two since the second joined in spear fencing, are getting pushed by a sarissa in the shield of the foremost hoplite.  Pressures are still low enough for both the sarissa to be held and the point not to be forced through the aspis.  The hoplites obviously give ground to the pressure, which signals their own rear ranks to close on them in support. 

What we have seen up to now is a sort of othismos, low pressure, but making use of force propagation from the rear.  It can only be done in the medium order, when the sarissaphoroi can stand square to the fore with the sarissa a hip height.  If they have the sarissa high, they cannot support the weight pushing on them, if they are t closer distance they have to be side-on (sorry, that is what every recreation has shown).  When side on, they are trading the ability to transfer mass forward in files, for extra points each foe must face. Perhaps this is why we are told the closest spacing is defensive.

If the hoplites do begin a high pressure othismos against sarissa points, they are likely to get the front rank skewered, so the front rank is unlikely to allow it, and instead will push back on their own ranks. What you end up with is a stalemate at low pressure othismos of whatever force can be sustained that does not either cause the shaft to slip in the hands or the point to go through the aspis (remember aspis faces are rather thin). Surely often this stalemate failed and hoplites got skewered or the shaft slipped and the second rank sarissa was brought to bear.  It could be that shafts usually slipped before shields gave way, then something like the flying buttress of multiple ranks of sarissa could occur. Unfortunately, every new point stuck in the shield makes it less likely that one of them will go through since now you have to divide the total force by the number of points.

Probably what happened is that they were stuck in this stalemate, with all of the advantages on the sarissa side. The next sarissa after the one or ones stuck would surely be able to strike sometimes, while the dory was useless.  The hoplites will have pined for their great-great-grandfather's auxilliary throwing spear. In fact, given Diodorus's confusion about spears being thrown in many of his hoplite battle descriptions, and the possibility that thureophoroi held two spears, I have wondered if late hoplites did go back to a second spear in the age of sarissaphoroi. All a hoplites could do otherwise is hope that some of their own men, not pinned to sarissa, could fight their way through the hedge of pikes. The outcomes of all the major battles say this is unlikely to be easy.  This too is why you do not want all five front ranks with progressively longer sarissa stuck in the enemy shields. It would be impossible to stop the hoplites from slipping beneath their own front ranks and slaughtering your defenseless men.

So there is definitely pushing. We can even call it othismos, because the mechanics are the same in many ways as hoplite othismos.  Just at a much lower pressure.

Last note, it is not due to a lack of stability that hoplite can't push forward.  The men beside them is what stabilized their forward progress.  Far worse would be is some men were halted and other's not.  Shield overlap midigates this to a large extent. I our 3 file experiments, only the center file was pushing on a force meter, yet the other ranks added force laterally.

[Jim Webster]

Last note, it is not due to a lack of stability that hoplite can't push forward.  The men beside them is what stabilized their forward progress.  Far worse would be is some men were halted and other's not.  Shield overlap midigates this to a large extent. I our 3 file experiments, only the center file was pushing on a force meter, yet the other ranks added force laterally.

BUT the hoplites have to be able to win, because historically they did. They beat one phalanx in the field at Thebes and Alexander had to send in another. That didn't break them either, it was their flanks going that broke them

[PMBardunias]

In othismos force and Mass are fairly interchangeable because there is so little net movement.

Thanks, Paul - although have we not already observed that a key characteristic of phalanx vs phalanx interaction is movement?

This is one of those things that is very hard to describe, but obvious once you see it.  I do have an example I have used before to make it clear.  Push your hands together in front of your chest in an isometric fashion.  As you squeeze from both sides you get quite a bit of pressure. Your palms are quite good at sensing this.  Now let your left arm move back and you will feel a drop in pressure that drops depending on how fast you let your arm move. (don't cheat and add more pressure to the advancing arm

As in othismos, the pressure is greatest when both sides resist completely. You can maintain this pressure for quite some time because the aspis keeps you alive and the means of generating force is mostly through leaning your weight forward on the man in front of you rather than pushing with the legs. What happens then is that the rear ranks of one side give back a step.  Instantly the pressure drops as they let off and as they go back a step, it makes room for the next man in front to also go back a step.  Because the pressure is a function of resistance on both sides, it drops as a whole and the victorious men shuffle forward.  It is not that there is no pushing while this happens, only that it is far lower than the peak pressure, and more in line with the type of jostling we see in many combat situations.  It is the fact that othismos is such a fragile thing, with both parties needing to resist fully, that makes it something we do not see in all battles of linear infantry.  Try to othismos-ize a roman, and he just steps back a step and keep stabbing you.

I guess I should comment on why a hoplite would do it then.  First off because he grew up on stories of heroes who fought over the dead bodies of other heroes. He grew up in a culture that made the decisive factor in battle holding the ground that the dead bodies of his fellow citizens were on.  Maybe he even grew up playing ground acquisition games like the "plane tree battles" described by Pausanias. For whatever reason, hoplites seem to have a particular dislike for giving ground. You can of course beat men back, or eliminate them through attrition, but if you can also push their whole unit back while stabbing them, that seems a plus to me.

[PMBardunias]

Last note, it is not due to a lack of stability that hoplite can't push forward.  The men beside them is what stabilized their forward progress.  Far worse would be is some men were halted and other's not.  Shield overlap midigates this to a large extent. I our 3 file experiments, only the center file was pushing on a force meter, yet the other ranks added force laterally.

BUT the hoplites have to be able to win, because historically they did. They beat one phalanx in the field at Thebes and Alexander had to send in another. That didn't break them either, it was their flanks going that broke them

Good point, but they win very rarely, and I wish we had descriptions how.  Maybe this is a case where a few men did fight past the hedge of sarissa.  Maybe they pulled a Cleonymus and just grabbed the sarissa, or broke the heads off Persian style.  Maybe they just wore them out in the stalemate. Hard to say.  Granicus may be another, but here I think disarray the culprit. There is a tale of a medieval pikeman jumping on the enemy pike, with his own held crosswise in front of him and taking the whole enemy rank of pikes down.  I never say never when men's valor may shine.

[Erpingham]

There is a tale of a medieval pikeman jumping on the enemy pike, with his own held crosswise in front of him and taking the whole enemy rank of pikes down.

I think your are referring to Arnold von Winkelried, the Swiss hero, at Sempach.  As summarised by Wikipedia

According to legend, the Swiss initially could not break the close ranks of the Habsburg pikemen. Winkelried cried: "I will open a passage into the line; protect, dear countrymen and confederates, my wife and children..." He then threw himself upon the Austrian pikes, taking some of them down with his body. This broke up the Austrian front, and made an opening through which the Swiss could attack.

Unfortunately, Arnold is first named 150 years after the event and his feat, attributed to an anonymous soldier, first appears about 80 years after the event.  So he may not have existed.  Good story to inspire future citizens though, whether true or not.

[PMBardunias]

There is a tale of a medieval pikeman jumping on the enemy pike, with his own held crosswise in front of him and taking the whole enemy rank of pikes down.

I think your are referring to Arnold von Winkelried, the Swiss hero, at Sempach.  As summarised by Wikipedia

According to legend, the Swiss initially could not break the close ranks of the Habsburg pikemen. Winkelried cried: "I will open a passage into the line; protect, dear countrymen and confederates, my wife and children..." He then threw himself upon the Austrian pikes, taking some of them down with his body. This broke up the Austrian front, and made an opening through which the Swiss could attack.

Unfortunately, Arnold is first named 150 years after the event and his feat, attributed to an anonymous soldier, first appears about 80 years after the event.  So he may not have existed.  Good story to inspire future citizens though, whether true or not.

Thanks, it is a great story.  If any of you have a publishable reference for Smythe and Monluc, I would be thankful. I have them from online sources.

[Erpingham]

Firstly, thanks to Paul for his explanations - I think they help a lot.  One comment on throwing things.  Byzantine hoplites could, according to their manuals, throw their 12 ft spears in melee at times, so maybe a frustrated hoplite could hurl his dory and try and get in with his sword?  Throwing things at pikemen by people who can't really reach to do other harm is not unknown at other times e.g. the English cavalry threw axes and maces and the Scots schiltrons.  At the Battle of Langside, aforementioned, pistols were thrown when the pike push siezed up.  And, of course, Smythe recommends the front rankers in a stalled push throw their pikes into the enemy ranks prior to drawing swords (though I suspect there that is the best way of getting them out of the way so they don't get tangled underfoot).

On the idea of targetting shields for spiking and pushing, Paul has a point that the pelta would be very hard to hold vertical at right angles to the file direction - sloping in some direction seems more intuitive.  From previous discussions I know we don't know how the shield was held, except it wasn't like an aspis and it had a handle (sometimes mistranslated as strap).  Justin, do you have one of your graphics that show how it is held in your reconstruction?

Final point on that energy graph for splitting an aspis.  The energy seems quite low compared with the test figures for impact energy from other weapons (alas spears seems to be the one missing).  But knife stabs have been measured at an average of around 30 J impact energy (and peak much higher), which suggests to me that a strong phalangite with a small headed sarissa could easily push it through an aspis if these figures are right (or at least I read them right).  Then what happens?  Is the hoplite going to play the game, or does he angle his shieldto turn the blow? 

[Erpingham]

If any of you have a publishable reference for Smythe and Monluc, I would be thankful. I have them from online sources.

There is a facsimile of a translation of Monluc here - the description of the pike fight at Cerisoles is p187-9.  Like you, I'm using old sources online, so don't know any modern editions.