Ok, I am looking for inspiration around the theme of Spartacus and the revolt of 73-71BCE. (Look to the last para if you want the short briefing on help being sought!)
Many years ago I assembled a small, (170 figures roughly) lead pile with a view to creating a 'Hollywood' style Spartacus BIG DBA army. (Paul hopefully you are not disgusted by my open mixing of history and fiction?! OK you probably will be! Sorry.)
'Hollywood' only in wanting to use 'Gladiator' 25mm figures rather than figures in late Roman Republic arms as probably captured and used by Spartacus and his compatriots in revolt, be they Thracian, German, Gallic or Celt, or other background. I have a collection of gladiators and then of others with farm implements, stone throwing rabble, and women and youths armed with farming implements! Then there other figures of Celts, Thracians and Germans in other boxes to add to the mix. (About 400 figures in those boxes!!)
I got my much neglected boxes of figures off the shelf to check how far I had progressed. The Gladiator and rabble box are all deflashed and primed. The Germans (200 figures) likewise. The Celts and Thracians untouched. So my plan (after I finish my Classical Indians project) in the New Year is to make a start on my Spartacus BIG DBA using my already deflashed and primed figures. More than enough to cover most options in DBA. [And I can always borrow from my Celtic / Gallic mercenaries in my Carthaginian / Hannibal like army, till I get started on the Celts / Gallic figures intended to join Spartacus!]
So planning ahead, I am thinking what "might" the Spartacus army have used as banners or symbols to separate them from their Roman enemies? OK the Celts and Germans if reverting to traditional dress / hair styles may have looked different, especially if eschewing captured armour and instead semi (or fully) naked.
Would they have loaned from Roman culture, as many freed slaves wore the 'pileus' hat (a close fitting, brimless conical hat apparently borrowed from culture of Greek sailors and looking like a Phrygian cap in some depictions)? Or would this be yet another symbol of their 'enslavement'?
Might they have borrowed from Roman god, Libertas, a deity often portrayed as a Roman matron carrying a laurel wreath, or would this be too much an association with Rome and not their freedom and liberty?
They might have resorted to differentiate themselves by adopting symbols from their own ethnic culture, that presumably many knew from their earlier lives, before being captured and enslaved in Rome's many wars of expansion and conquest?
I would presume they ransacked temples and other places where items from these conquests may have been displayed as record of Roman feats of arms, besides the period when Spartacus's companions are described as preparing their own weapons for the following campaigning season, circa 72BCE.
What might they have carried as banners to signify the presence of a chosen leader, like Spartacus, Crixus, Gannicus, Castus, Oenomaus?
What might they have placed on their shields to distinguish themselves from the Romans? Might they have borrowed from the Greek, using the Greek word "ἐλευθερία" (capitalized Ἐλευθερία ) to use a Greek letter as inspiration? After all, I believe Plutarch described Spartacus as being more like a Greek than a Thracian?
Might Spartacus have been inspired by King Mithridates VI of Pontus? One theory seems to be Spartacus had deserted a Roman auxilia unit to seek his fortune in Pontus when captured and sentenced to gladiator status / slave status.
So I am asking all you Latin or Greek scholars, or otherwise educated antiquarians (No Paul, I am not trying to be abusive about the age of my fellow SoA members! Honest.) to make inspired suggestions for generals standards or shield devices / patterns for my future 'Hollywood' Spartacus mob, sorry army...
CarlL
For standards, I went with the captured Roman ones. Frontinus 2.5.34 records the recapture of five eagles, twenty six other standards and five bundles of rods and axes when Crassus defeated the group who had split off from the others. The standards are _recaptured_ (at least according to the translation) so are Roman rather than newly made. It could be that they were being carted around in the baggage rather than carried in the line of battle. However, in the 2nd Servile War, the 'king' had lictors with fasces, so there is precedent for the Roman insignia being use.
Appearance-wise, I have my doubts that many - if any - would have had trousers made up for them to replicate their national dress.
I can't offer better than Swampster on standards, but even if they may not have been well supplied with trousers I'd go easy on naked warriors. I don't recall any in the film. They are not well attested in the historical record, and when they do appear (Sentium) they don't seem to have been very useful. Hardly the horrible fanatics beloved by rule makers and figure manufacturers.
I'm Spartacus!
Oh hang on, we've done that one havent we....
Quote from: Imperial Dave on December 18, 2023, 02:43:04 PMI'm Spartacus!
Oh hang on, we've done that one havent we....
Now, now Dave. You know what the nice doctor said. You are not Spartacus.
Quote from: Erpingham on December 18, 2023, 02:53:26 PMQuote from: Imperial Dave on December 18, 2023, 02:43:04 PMI'm Spartacus!
Oh hang on, we've done that one havent we....
Now, now Dave. You know what the nice doctor said. You are not Spartacus.
Although it probably didn't help when the doctor insisted that she was Spartacus.
And so's my wife!
Quote from: Keraunos on December 18, 2023, 01:56:09 PMI can't offer better than Swampster on standards, but even if they may not have been well supplied with trousers I'd go easy on naked warriors. I don't recall any in the film. They are not well attested in the historical record, and when they do appear (Sentium) they don't seem to have been very useful. Hardly the horrible fanatics beloved by rule makers and figure manufacturers.
I do have some naked figures, but I figure they are like that out of necessity (or possibly response to the heat) rather than bravado. There is one instance I recall where a slave owner beat his slaves for asking for clothes - he thought they should steal them from people travelling around the place. It could be that rather than literally naked they may have been just very badly clothed - the "bare minimum of food and clothing".
Since the Xyston figures that I used for most of the slaves included some naked or nearly naked figures, it was a useful justification.
While I think about it, there is good evidence for slave slingers in the 2nd servile war. This might justify them in the 3rd war as well, though the origin of the slaves may have been different enough for this to have been rarer.
Incidentally, I am Spartacus and have two tee-shirts as evidence.
Well that's that then...
Splitter!
Swampster,
I a assuming that the shepherds (possibly other slaves employed as shepherds) who joined up with Spartacus & Co., would have used slings as a means to beat off wolves or wild dogs (I am not sure if Italy had any 'big' or wild cats at that time) so should probably be well evident in a Spartacus army as 'skirmishers' even if only using pebbles or hand shaped mud / clay pellets that had been sun baked. I suppose some may have been spear, or javelin or even bow armed; but slings and slinghot of this type would be a cheap and plentiful weapon for use by young and old (or male or female).
CarlL
I have a feeling that the shepherds are noted as using clubs - flocks were in danger of two-legged predators though wolves certainly were present. Largest cat was the lynx which was present until a century ago and has been reintroduced.
For warfare rather than wolf dissuasion, there have been finds of lead shot inscribed with various things. Many are religious but some reference the 'kings' of the 2nd SW (in a way that shows they are _for_ the king rather than _at_ the king). Some other shot seems to have been used by Greeks in the Roman army.
I would guess that once he had smashed a few legions, Spartacus would have had so much captured gear his soldiers looked more like their Roman opponents. I expect Hannibal found it a bit harder to identify the real Romans, once his troops had finished looting the battlefield at Cannae. Would you pass up some decent mail (only one previous owner) or a sword that doesn't bend in battle?
A few blood stains here or there...
Quote from: shetlandcats on December 19, 2023, 12:00:36 AMI would guess that once he had smashed a few legions, Spartacus would have had so much captured gear his soldiers looked more like their Roman opponents. I expect Hannibal found it a bit harder to identify the real Romans, once his troops had finished looting the battlefield at Cannae. Would you pass up some decent mail (only one previous owner) or a sword that doesn't bend in battle?
Carl's intention is to use Kubrick rather than Appian as the source so much of what I'll say isn't really relevant for him.
We know that large amounts of kit was captured and used - some of it was dropped when its owners fled from combat e.g. some of Mummius's men. The gladiatorial kit "... which they viewed as dishonourable and barbaric..." was replaced almost immediately.
Even allowing for the exaggeration typical in ancient texts, Spartacus seems to have had (far?) more fighters than captured kit. Appian refers to a point where the army was very large (FWIW, he says 120k)but "not yet properly armed for warfare". After all, even when the Roman armies were beaten at the start, the amount of captured kit would likely be enough for a few thousand. Body armour would probably be under-represented since fleeing men might keep it on for the sake of time while discarding shields and weapons is a simple and quite instinctive reaction.
Right from the start, they were making their own weapons including wicker and leather shields and fire shaped javelins (probably- Salust's text is very broken). This was at a point when they would not have been aware of just how much Roman equipment was to become available to them, but shows the stop-gap equipment available to those for whom there wasn't enough gear. Fairly quickly, the slaves began making better gear since measures were taken to secure iron and copper. I think there is a reference in the 2nd SW to the 'king' keeping anyone who could work metal to do so rather than being fighters - I daresay Spartacus would do the same.
Early on, Spartacus kept some of his new recruits as light armed for scouts etc. I should think this policy would have been retained. Some - many?- of the slaves may not have been up to carrying full Roman kit without training. Time was spent on equipping and presumably training, but the numbers of men and constrictions of time and weapon availability would have meant many remained ill-equipped.
My slave army is here https://swampster-danteswars.blogspot.com/2013/02/plutarchs-wars-hes-spartacus.html
For those interested in the Slave Wars, Brent Shaw's "Spartacus and the Slave Wars" is a collection of sources
Nice summary and of course the army too
Given Carl's love of modelling, I am looking forward to his ideas on making burning logs.
:o
Barry Strauss's "The Spartacus War" is a good read too. CarlL
echo that. Read it a few years ago when the TV series was on. Very good
PS "Swampster" / Peter,
One fact you got wrong: "Carl's intention is to use Kubrick rather than Appian as the source so much of what I'll say isn't really relevant for him." My intention is to use gladiator figures instead of figures in Roman armour but otherwise create a 'historical' representation of Spartacus's forces.
I raised the topic to bring in as much knowledge from members as people can share; while also extend into what ifs - as noted in my original post - (but trying to relate to the history) where the many gaps exist in the fragmented and limited sources about Spartacus.
Cheers for all your contributions so far, and the historical sources are relevant, just the tabletop heavy infantry will appear as gladiators for the fun of it.
CarlL
Anthony / 'Erpingham',
I cheated and bought some 30+ years ago, not sure which 28mm trader, I thought they could feature as ambush weapons (or slow moving scythed chariot type!) just for fun ... I may just add smoke and odd flame effect!!
CarlL
Quote from: CarlL on December 19, 2023, 07:01:11 PMI thought they could feature as ambush weapons (or slow moving scythed chariot type!) just for fun ..
Yes, it is interesting to think how they might work. Unlike, say, flaming pigs, one needs the right sort of sloping terrain. I'd also think they were very vulnerable, needing two unarmoured blokes to propel them. Just take out one, and the device would swerve to a halt.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on December 19, 2023, 06:52:37 PMecho that. Read it a few years ago when the TV series was on. Very good
I seem to remember a few things which were a bit of a leap. Was it Strauss that reckoned the cavalry arm was what Spartacus relied on?
Sorry - I made a leap from the 'Hollywood' style you mentioned.
Quote from: CarlL on December 19, 2023, 06:57:49 PMPS "Swampster" / Peter,
One fact you got wrong: "Carl's intention is to use Kubrick rather than Appian as the source so much of what I'll say isn't really relevant for him." My intention is to use gladiator figures instead of figures in Roman armour but otherwise create a 'historical' representation of Spartacus's forces.
I raised the topic to bring in as much knowledge from members as people can share; while also extend into what ifs - as noted in my original post - (but trying to relate to the history) where the many gaps exist in the fragmented and limited sources about Spartacus.
Cheers for all your contributions so far, and the historical sources are relevant, just the tabletop heavy infantry will appear as gladiators for the fun of it.
CarlL
Quote from: Swampster on December 19, 2023, 07:19:21 PMQuote from: Imperial Dave on December 19, 2023, 06:52:37 PMecho that. Read it a few years ago when the TV series was on. Very good
I seem to remember a few things which were a bit of a leap. Was it Strauss that reckoned the cavalry arm was what Spartacus relied on?
I honestly cant remember as it must be 10 years since I read it last
Quote from: Erpingham on December 19, 2023, 04:53:36 PMGiven Carl's love of modelling, I am looking forward to his ideas on making burning logs.
1st Corps make them in 28mm
https://1stcorps.co.uk/product/slave-revolt-spartacus/
I've seen some done in 15mm - I think it was on the DBA Fanaticus site.
Good spot Peter / 'Swampster' - they look like the ones I bought!?
I am just getting back into reading the sources and secondary histories based on sources after a long gap since any background reading on the Third Servile War ... in itself a very Roman description. Would Spartacus have been a 'terrorist' or a 'freedom fighter' in todays news headlines!! I suppose it would depend on if it was the Roman TV station reporting!!
Thanks for sharing link to your 'blog'and your own Spartacus army. Mine will share many similarities bar the HI armament.
Your 1stCorps link, and their images of their figures, reminded me that is who provided my 'Kirk Douglas' on a horse. I will give him a beard, as I believe Spartacus was bearded... and make a foot version too, as its clear the army was an infantry one, although mobility was sometimes a raiding asset in foraging or striking an early blow but not in stand up fight. (From memory so I must re-kindle my background reading!)
Thank you for your historical and gaming input. I value it and enjoy it. I don't want to put anyone off contributing as others may get bug to do a 'non gladiator' Spartacus army!!
My figures were bought years ago when I built a 25mm Carthaginian and a 25mm Roman Republican army and looked to add an alternative Roman foe (I did also have a 25mm Macedonian army! And thought about how to create Pontic Army but never did.) Friends had also gathered similar forces. Then the group I gamed with lost interest in ancients and the project got 'mothballed'. But I have rekindled my ancients and medieval interests in recent years as retirement has given me the time to get those mothballed projects off the shelf and paint them. That's the plan for Spartacus anyway in 2024.
CarlL
Quote from: CarlL on December 19, 2023, 08:02:41 PM... and make a foot version too
CarlL
Needed for the last battle at least - he killed his horse to show that he was making a stand with his men.
And 1st Corp do "fiery rollers"! Based on the primary source material (the movie obviously), you need a lot of fiery rollers.
Surely the command banner needs Kirk Douglas' image to inspire the troops? After all, they are ALL Spartacus.
A possible entry indeed Steven.
I am veering more to a banner like 36a in Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars, [AMPW], by Duncan Head (drawn by Ian Heath); but with a snake alone curled or in striking pose atop of the hanging cloth depicting an image of Dionysus (aka Bacchus); given the popularity of this good with gladiators, and links to drinking (which possibly appeals to ancient Gallic and Germans among his supporters) and the snake is often linked with the cult of Dionysus, and with the unnamed wife and seer of Spartacus.
Just a thought. (May lead to some experimentation with coils of milliput around the top of model vexillum, and finding an image or two of the head of Dionysus or Bacchus from ancient mosaic to use? Any suggestions of images that could form basis for mini portrayal please log here!)
CarlL
The following website is a good source of ancient images with each (so far as my reading of it goes) image linked to its place of finding or museum / collection.
see http://www.my-favourite-planet.de/english/people/d1/dionysus.html
CarlL
I extracted this facial image from one of the vase images on the my favourite planet website listed above, and it provides an interesting face that could be basis of one vexillum portrait. I think the contrasts on the vases make for good or striking image potential on a small vexillum. I think I am torn between the portrayal as fun loving drinker and hardened old man who you dont want to cross, might work well.
So lets see what else we can find image wise!
CarlL
Some other interesting depictions of Dionysus from coins, mosaic and pottery. In the Greek myths it appears that Dionysus has travelled the world to plant the grape vine and when not well received invokes madness, and death on disbelievers! So not just a god of wine and drinking orgies! In the last image severed heads appear to accompany the procession! A god the Roman Senate tried to suppress and then try to confine to non citizens in Italy. CarlL
Just type in dionysus mosaic and you will be flooded with options. It was a popular subject in the mosaicist's reportoire.
If you want to go full Hollywood, you could give them big red flags...
And flaming wheatabix...