No Pink Floyd Here . . .

[Chris]

Gentlemen,

I was not sure where to post this . . . it stems from the book I'm currently reading, so it might belong there. Then again, maybe it's a general discussion thread?

As it deals with history, specifically, things I was not aware of, I thought that maybe it should be placed here.


On page 164 of the book I am currently reading, there was reference made to "the Great Wall of Gorgan," which was built to "check Hephthalite attacks from Khurasan into northern Iran."

Evidently, this wall was constructed of brick and "stretches nearly 125 miles from the eastern shores of the Caspian to the Pishkamar Mountains . . ."

According the latter part of the paragraph, this wall is longer than Hadrian's and the Antonine barriers. This wall still stands today.

Until reading this page, I had no idea . . . I was unaware.

I was reminded, however, of a book review I casually glanced at in a past issue of SLINGSHOT.
This was Great Walls & Linear Barriers," by Peter Spring and reviewed by the great Nick Harbud in Issue 304.

Incidentally, in looking through back issues for this review (strange, how my memory works - what sticks and what does not), I happened upon a review of Empire of Horses by John Man. The book cover is shown on page 45 of Issue 342. The review was done by Dan N. Hazelwood. Anyway, the colorful (colourful) horse archer on the Empire of Horses is also featured on Empires of the Steppes.

Cheers,
Chris

[Imperial Dave]

And now you have reminded me to go and look at the book by Peter Spring. Currently reading about dykes so seems a logical step to continue my research with the next book

[DBS]

There is no certainty that it was built to counter Hepthalites in particular, as we do not really know from what precise direction they threatened the Sasanian lands.  Perhaps safest to say to deter / control nomadic types living north of the wall, in the more marginal areas of the southern steppes, without getting too concerned about specific labels.

Yes, the wall is very long, and includes integral forts comparable to those of Hadrian's Wall (indeed, the archaeologists have used Roman barracks as an approximate guide to their guesstimates of the garrison size).  Equally interesting are several very large fortified compounds south of the Gurgan wall, with no signs of meaningful internal structures.  It is hypothesised that these may have been permanent muster points or forward operating bases for field armies as and when they were needed in the area, somewhere to pitch tents and pasture horses.

Equally poorly known are the Sasanian (possibly originally Parthian) defensive works at some of the key chokepoints in the Caucasus, again presumed to hinder Alans, Huns, whoever, coming south.  Of course, the Sasanians did try to claim subsidies off the late Romans for the mutual security these defences offered...

[Jim Webster]

I've seen discussions of this wall in a wargaming context, but it might have been on the DBMM list if it wasn't here. Basically the existence of the wall and its towers postulates the existence of a garrison, which also presumes a Sassanid regular army and probably regular infantry.

I've emphasised the probably but personally I have no problem with the concept of Sassanid regular infantry

[DBS]

We have discussed it several times, most extensively here:

https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=4600

[Chris]

Sigh . . . yet another example of my ignorance when it comes to matters historical. 

And evidence of where I could have saved myself some trouble by trying a few searches of previous forum/thread discussions and topics.

Thanks for the pointing this out DBS. Cheers.

[Keraunos]

Sigh . . . yet another example of my ignorance when it comes to matters historical. 

Don't worry.  I hadn't heard about it before either, so thanks for bringing it up.  The great thing about ignorance of historical matters is that it can always be remedied.

[Imperial Dave]

Everyday is a learning day

For some, erm...me, it can be multiple times during said day!

[DBS]

Thanks for the pointing this out DBS. Cheers.

Sincere apologies if my rather laconic response above was taken to imply any form of criticism for not having seen the previous discussions.  Very much not my intention.  I think the Gurgan/Gorgan wall is a fascinating example of how long-held assumptions can blind us to the complexities of a polity such as the Sasanian empire.

Reflecting on it this morning, I think the real oddity of the Sasanians for their place in late antiquity is the fact that, as far as I am aware, we have never found any meaningful contemporary texts from within the empire that throw light on its bureaucracy and organisation; essentially all we have are the royal res gestae inscriptions, which are helpful for the extent of the empire, and claimed military successes, but do not actually tell us anything about the armies, manpower, organisation.  We are therefore left with the records of their enemies, and Armenian and Islamic authors who are not contemporary, and may or may not be recording stuff accurately (and certainly have a large dollop of romance and mythology chucked in), plus coins and seals which offer little insights into the upper levels of society and generals/governors.

Compare to the Achaemenids, where we have, at least for the western end of the empire, plenty of low level texts thanks to the Babylonian scribal traditions and the use of clay tablets.

This lack of textual sources, plus the prejudices of the Roman authors, mean that we have this oddity of a clearly huge, successful and well organised empire, yet one that can seem to embody "barbarian otherness" purely because the only voices we have from within are bombastic shahinshah inscriptions.

Then throw in such wargaming taxonomic obsessions about classifying troops as Regular/Irregular...  

[Erpingham]

Then throw in such wargaming taxonomic obsessions about classifying troops as Regular/Irregular...  

A fun topic in itself. What do we mean by it? Is our obsession driven by rules or rules by our obsession. I am tempted toward a new topic in rules discussions 

[Imperial Dave]

Ooooh yes please.....my favourite subject as you know