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Quote from: Imperial Dave on July 16, 2025, 01:49:21 PMOne does wonder about the trope of AS cavalry and the reasoning behind it

Shouldn't that read "troop" rather than "trope"? 

I am prompted to ask the question, prompted by a discussion elsewhere on the forum, what are we thinking when we say "AS cavalry"? Or "Sub-Roman cavalry"? An armed man on a horse? Or do we carry some baggage of well-equipped, skilled mounted fighters - proto-knights?  We know, a little later than this, in Europe that cavalry might just as easily dismount and make tough infantry fighters (the Franks certainly did it on occassion, and the Welsh) if required.

Fighting from horseback but not exclusively so

Been doing some research for a local battle that has had me scouring maps and the like. My overwhelming feeling is that some DA battles must have been more raids than pitched battles per se

Like the angler's fish they get bigger with the retelling 

A very astute observation 

I must admit I begin to suspect that I've seen the wheel turn before. Perhaps as a reaction to the glories of the legends of Arthur, I can remember reading accounts set in the period where the leaders were little more than bandits in hand-me-down equipment bickering over the ruins in a squalid wasteland.

Then we had 'Continuity Rome' and the legions or their grandchildren still maintained order, and civilisation still managed to somehow cling on.

And now we're drifting back into barbarism again 

I do rather wonder whether the picture we paint of 'Arthurian Britain' (or sub-Roman or post-Roman or whatever) captures more of the zeitgeist of the era the author lives through than it does the world of the 5th and 6th centuries 

Having spent a lifetime watching the "Arthurian" thing (well, since my teens), perhaps the most interesting bit, at least outside of selling popular "histories", is the shift away from the great man and more an attempt to create a context. In the first half of the 5th century, that tends to look more decaying Rome than reversion to barbarism that once it did, IMO. How long this twighlight lasted and how it transitioned into early medieval kingdoms remains a pretty open question, though, I think.

One bit of the argument appears to be related to maintenance of skills in writing Latin and in rhetoric etc - as if there is still the ability to learn/teach a high standard of Roman style education then this implies at least some rich (and powerful) individuals who would have a significant number of clients, and thus be able to raise a reasonable sized force.

Unfortunately I lack any idea of the details of such arguments....and thus if they shed any light on the question of size of societal units and their ability to muster armed force.

Ability to muster fighting men is a very nebulous query and answer. It depends on the polity which of course is the proverbial jelly-nail-wall conundrum

I think the use of foederati was much more widespread than previously thought especially in the SE. Also the SRBs vs the AS/Irish/Picts is far too simplistic

Far far too simplistic

Quote from: gavindbm on July 18, 2025, 09:12:33 PMOne bit of the argument appears to be related to maintenance of skills in writing Latin and in rhetoric etc - as if there is still the ability to learn/teach a high standard of Roman style education then this implies at least some rich (and powerful) individuals who would have a significant number of clients, and thus be able to raise a reasonable sized force.

Perhaps the best - but rather limited and specific - bit of evidence is the 5th century mosaic at Chedworth villa.  Someone has the money (as I argued when it was discovered a few years ago, I doubt Lurkio the tessera layer was doing it for a couple of chickens) to still be tarting up the family estate at least as late as 424 from the carbon dating, and the excavator thinks the balance of probability is actually much later in the century.

Now, having a nice villa does not necessarily equal having a retinue of armed lads.  But it probably means that if anyone in the neighbourhood is likely to have Doug and Dinsdale Piranha on the payroll, it is the villa owner.

The curiales...who may well have been part of SR polities in the 5th.

If we look at Germanus's visit (one or two visits according to taste) there is still a functioning set up for the majority of the (former) province around 430ish

And Gildas a little later is able to write passable Latin.  Yes, a monk, but the early monasteries were almost certainly not the sophisticated seats of learning of the Middle Ages, and furthermore any form of religious communities rather imply a degree of social sophistication to be able to exist.

If only we knew where he was based when he wrote his diatribe! 

Quote from: Imperial Dave on July 19, 2025, 02:04:57 PMIf only we knew where he was based when he wrote his diatribe! 

I've always assumed it was Guildford - Gildas' ford