Testing hoplite combat

[PMBardunias]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I am running some tests on as clash on over 100 men in full HEMA protective gear who will go full tilt and fight in phalanx.  I will have lots of cameras and probably a drone as well.  These people will be equipped with plastic rotella, about the size of an aspis without the rim, so pretty close, and rubber tipped spears of about 7'.

I am planning to test overhand vs Mathew's couched underhand, differential frontage, differential speed, thus cohesion, of the charge, how difficult it is for men to get past the hedge of spears to go shield on shield, differential depth, with a force meter for othismos, and other issues of formation. I have printed "agression cards, so I can control the fighting style of the front ranks, and I will force some promachoi to "break" their spears to see what they do.

I welcome any suggestions for other tests I may not have thought of, or issues that those of you on here would gain from seeing tested.

Paul

[RichT]

Paul - that sounds intriguing and potentially very valuable.

Some random thoughts of things I'd like to see:
- various depths and their effects (may be difficult depending on numbers I guess, though shallow depths should be possible)
- the various possible file intervals (2 m, 1 m. 0.5 m, and maybe in betweens). Marching, running, manoeuvring and fighting in these intervals.
- do you have a way of judging hits from spears (or other weapons) in mass combat? I ask because for example where you intend to test "how difficult it is for men to get past the hedge of spears to go shield on shield" I imagine the answer will be "very easy" if there is no risk of taking a wounding or lethal blow from a spear while doing so; the lethality of real combat must very materially affect its mechanics, and any test without that lethality (or, to be fair to your test subjects, the closest possible representation of it) may give misleading results.
- any chance of testing an underarm sarissa hold? I know the spears are too short, but even just testing (and documenting) the hold for two ranks would tell us something. Particularly in the closest interval.
- use of swords in 'othismos' - also drawing of swords in this state, and use of spears.
- how about non-hoplite combat? eg with swords, or in more fluid order (in order to avoid an assumption that hoplite combat is unique).
- duration of and fatigue produced by combat (at various intensities), and also including charging
- active pushing (othismos, crowd crush) v. passive pushing (bracing)
- ability to retreat (walking backwards) in various circumstances (on what terrain?)

I may think of more...

[Patrick Waterson]

I will force some promachoi to "break" their spears to see what they do.

Will the spears be double-ended?  Otherwise I foresee the re-invention of the truncheon ...

Richard's list covers just about everything I have thought of, apart from placement of the unit commander.  Is in the front at the right actually the optimal position?  Or does this apply only to an overall comamnder, with lochos commanders being better in the centre of the front rank?  Or should this be a different study?

Cohesion is going to be an interesting aspect; I assume the volunteers will be organised in files with a file leader and closer; it might be interesting to see if a group experienced in moving and formating on this basis has superior staying-power to one which consists only of aggregated individuals (a 'crowd').

Will the duration of combat be set, or 'called' by the referee at his discretion, or allowed to run until a result is achieved?  In the latter event, it would be interesting to see if the loser falls back as a group or breaks and scatters, or what.

This has the potential to be a very informative study, Paul.  I wish you the best of success.

[Jim Webster]

Would it help to have solid 'sides' to the phalanx blocks. After all, you're looking at a narrow frontage of a lot bigger thing. So would you need something to stop your phalanx bulging to both sides as it fights?
Also I assume you don't want overlapping, except when specifically examining overlapping.

So form up with two barriers, one to cover each flank?

[Dangun]

I will have lots of cameras and probably a drone as well. 

Drone footage could be very cool, and very new.

[PMBardunias]

Paul - that sounds intriguing and potentially very valuable.

Some random thoughts of things I'd like to see:
- various depths and their effects (may be difficult depending on numbers I guess, though shallow depths should be possible)
- the various possible file intervals (2 m, 1 m. 0.5 m, and maybe in betweens). Marching, running, manoeuvring and fighting in these intervals.

These we are doing

- do you have a way of judging hits from spears (or other weapons) in mass combat? I ask because for example where you intend to test "how difficult it is for men to get past the hedge of spears to go shield on shield" I imagine the answer will be "very easy" if there is no risk of taking a wounding or lethal blow from a spear while doing so; the lethality of real combat must very materially affect its mechanics, and any test without that lethality (or, to be fair to your test subjects, the closest possible representation of it) may give misleading results.

The people involved will be HEMA practitioners and used to reacting to "play" hits as though real.  Obviously it is an honor system, but I will debrief both sides after to see if spearmen felt the other side was cheating.  The real problem is that weapons will not stick in shields or men as they would in real life.

- any chance of testing an underarm sarissa hold? I know the spears are too short, but even just testing (and documenting) the hold for two ranks would tell us something. Particularly in the closest interval.

Probably not, but I may be able to get a bunch together to try something.

- use of swords in 'othismos' - also drawing of swords in this state, and use of spears.
- how about non-hoplite combat? eg with swords, or in more fluid order (in order to avoid an assumption that hoplite combat is unique).
- duration of and fatigue produced by combat (at various intensities), and also including charging
- active pushing (othismos, crowd crush) v. passive pushing (bracing)
- ability to retreat (walking backwards) in various circumstances (on what terrain?)

They will all have nylon Xiphos replicas- there is another class on hoplite xiphos use. We assume a priori that the notion hoplites could not fight outside of a phalanx is crap, so they will be fighting one on one..

Duration and breaking will be covered by filming the event, I can get that data later.

I am bringing a force meter for othismos, but without true, deep, aspides, this may be limited.  Many will have steel back and breast though, it is primarily a renaissance workshop, so they may be able to push in safety.

Jim, we will run the tests between a pair of buildings to simulate extended lines on both flanks.

Patrick, I am hoping to have a group that will follow file leaders, and another than just forms in a mass for at least one test. We have not decided how we will handle duration yet.  I will have an air horn though

Thanks everyone.

[Jim Webster]

I think we're all awaiting the results with interest 

[Justin Swanton]

One last thing: any chance the reenactors could try the overarm hold I propose for phalangites whilst in as close formation as possible with shields overlapping? To see if any hidden problems emerge?

[PMBardunias]

One last thing: any chance the reenactors could try the overarm hold I propose for phalangites whilst in as close formation as possible with shields overlapping? To see if any hidden problems emerge?

Is this the same as the renaissance pike overhand grip (both hands fingertips down)? remind me.  If I can get a bunch of guys to freelance for me, I will film some two handed spear frontage.

[Justin Swanton]

One last thing: any chance the reenactors could try the overarm hold I propose for phalangites whilst in as close formation as possible with shields overlapping? To see if any hidden problems emerge?

Is this the same as the renaissance pike overhand grip (both hands fingertips down)? remind me.  If I can get a bunch of guys to freelance for me, I will film some two handed spear frontage.

No, like this. Polevaulter grip.

[PMBardunias]

One last thing: any chance the reenactors could try the overarm hold I propose for phalangites whilst in as close formation as possible with shields overlapping? To see if any hidden problems emerge?

Is this the same as the renaissance pike overhand grip (both hands fingertips down)? remind me.  If I can get a bunch of guys to freelance for me, I will film some two handed spear frontage.

No, like this. Polevaulter grip.

I will see what I can do.

[Justin Swanton]

One last thing: any chance the reenactors could try the overarm hold I propose for phalangites whilst in as close formation as possible with shields overlapping? To see if any hidden problems emerge?

Is this the same as the renaissance pike overhand grip (both hands fingertips down)? remind me.  If I can get a bunch of guys to freelance for me, I will film some two handed spear frontage.

No, like this. Polevaulter grip.

I will see what I can do.

One possible problem - your reenactors will be using hoplite aspides with porpax grips, which I suspect will make a two-handed grip on the spear impossible.

[RichT]

One possible problem - your reenactors will be using hoplite aspides with porpax grips, which I suspect will make a two-handed grip on the spear impossible.

From Paul's original post:

These people will be equipped with plastic rotella, about the size of an aspis without the rim, so pretty close

If they are like this one for example it should be possible to slide the leftmost armband above the elbow, so allowing a two handed grip. We will find out in due course.

[Justin Swanton]

One possible problem - your reenactors will be using hoplite aspides with porpax grips, which I suspect will make a two-handed grip on the spear impossible.

From Paul's original post:

These people will be equipped with plastic rotella, about the size of an aspis without the rim, so pretty close

If they are like this one for example it should be possible to slide the leftmost armband above the elbow, so allowing a two handed grip. We will find out in due course.

Ideally you want the armgrip vertical and pretty much in the centre of the shield and loose enough so the bent elbow can fit comfortably in it. The elbow rests in the armgrip and the telamon carries the weight of the shield, elbow and spear. With a little adjustment it works fine and the shield is rigid in the bargain. With the overarm grip it is possible to raise the shield by raising the elbow, all whilst keeping everything else in place. I'm not sure if Paul's reenactors can pull all this off though.

[PMBardunias]

Things went quite well. Still going through the footage. 

In the end, we set out to examine three things: Overhand vs underhand, close order (60cm) vs opened order (90cm), and a true othismos between two opposing masses of men (I took heat for measuring files pushing against a stationary object.

Short results were that Underhand was found to be a problem. Targets were limited when the men were close enough to have to strike from a couched position over the shields. More interestingly, because I did not predict it, the overhand combatants could out range the under by letting the shaft slide as they struck, and by moving in, they could jam up the underhanders, who could not reach back to the same degree as the overhand strikers.

Open vs closed order was a massacre. The opened order combatants could not stand up against the large number of spears facing them.

Lastly, we brought two massed together on 6 ranks deep. We maxed out at 675lbs of crushing force.

Two other interesting things. 6 ranks crashing against 2 ranks broke right through the line, 3 failed pretty quick, but 4 ranks stopped 6 ranks or even 8 ranks cold.  This may explain why we see 4 ranks as a common minima, it can hold up any number of ranks in an intial collision and renders such a collision a bad idea.

We also formed up around 60-70 men in files, assigned a file leader, and then had them follow the leader into line, march a few hundred yards, then fall out back into files. Literally 5 minutes of explanation and they were flawless in their execution, even running around obstacles.