Sorry if this is obvious, but I see figures available for EIR that are identical other than the armour type (mail vs segmented) - do we know if mixed armour types would occur in a unit/cohort/legion? i.e. would an entire legion be kitted out from legion supplies of a standard type, or would new drafts potentially be issued a different type at the depot before marching to join their parent legion? Or would existing armour be kept and replacements of the latest type only issued when the mail was beyond repair?
Presumably 'spares' especially of fittings would be an issue.
Basically, can I get away with mixing mail and segmentata in the same unit?
The general feeling seems to be that they might have been mixed, though I don't know of any hard evidence for that, except perhaps for the use of both mail and scale on the Adamklissi metopes. Both mail and sgmentata plates were found in the same Newstead deposit, for instance - though we can't be sure that they were both worn, by infantry rankers, at the same date.
I don't see why you can't mix both armour types Doug. The old way of thinking used to be segmented armour legionaries and mail for auxiliaries. I suspect.on the back of other discussions you might find that a group of new recruits were handed whatever there was in the quartermasters stores especially in far flung provinces...
Indeed, if the state and private arms factories were set up for largely replacing worn out product then it would be very difficult to replace whole units of the size of legions at a time. If there were were say 500,000 armoured men in the imperial military, one might expect armour to last for 20 years ( no major battle losses and field repairs by the unit) then the industry would be producing 25,000 armours a year. Say armour lasts ten years then its 50,000 sets a year, so a complete work through would take ten years . I'd accept that the industry could be geared up , but why would you, purely for uniformity's sake? As the wear on armour is spread around all units equally then replacing a whole unit at a time would involve moving a lot of suits around so that one or two legions had all the worn sets ready for replacement. Why bother?
Someone mentioned, it may well have been at the Society Conference that wearing segmentata and even tile shaped scuta may well have hung on well into the reign of Constantine as replacement worked through. As to artistic representation , I suppose we would expect the latest styles to be on the reliefs.
Roy
Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.
Possibly the only exception would be the Praetorians
Quote from: Tim on August 28, 2020, 08:16:50 PM
Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.
Well, I confess I know not much about EIR other than Asterix comics* And I have gathered some figures for Infamy, so I am wondering what they should look like. Of course, the temptation is to do the Hollywood version, but i suspect the reality is not only more interesting to read about, but also more interesting to assemble and paint.
It's all part of the discussion about what our Romans actually looked like. My own suspicion is that there is an easy (and wrong) answer.. same with Auxilliaries.
* and of course - those would be Caesarian/Marian legions, so not EIR. But if Goscinny and Uderzo can get away with it...
Quote from: DougM on August 28, 2020, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: Tim on August 28, 2020, 08:16:50 PM
Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.
Well, I confess I know not much about EIR other than Asterix comics* And I have gathered some figures for Infamy, so I am wondering what they should look like. Of course, the temptation is to do the Hollywood version, but i suspect the reality is not only more interesting to read about, but also more interesting to assemble and paint.
It's all part of the discussion about what our Romans actually looked like. My own suspicion is that there is an easy (and wrong) answer.. same with Auxilliaries.
* and of course - those would be Caesarian/Marian legions, so not EIR. But if Goscinny and Uderzo can get away with it...
Asterix comics are a primary source are they not? My EIR legions were painted from them, not having the Osprey to hand at the time...
I also strongly suspect that Octavian did not change the way legions looked immediately, not least because that would have cost money; a unit in 44BC might not look that different to the same unit in 25BC...
Interesting, too, Tim, to look at some typologies .
The mail shirts change, The helmets change and the shields change. What does this tell us about what is going on, because its not just a straight cutoff from mail to segmentata and the manufacture/ conversion of kit must be coped with by industrial complex. Similarly at the other end as segmentata is dropped.
Roy
Way back, Phil Barker postulated that during the civil wars hastily raised legions had leather armour as it was faster and easier to produce than equipping everybody with mail
Given the speed with which people raised legions and the sheer number raised (Augustus apparently had 50 left and that was after disbanding most of Mark Anthony's 17.)
Even if these legions were under strength, mail is not something you can manufacture particularly rapidly
The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?
Quote from: Holly on August 29, 2020, 10:18:33 AM
The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?
I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings.
Quote from: DougM on August 29, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: Holly on August 29, 2020, 10:18:33 AM
The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?
I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings.
I think that various things were done at various levels. Some of it was by 'posting'. If you were in a cohort or half cohort stationed in a certain place, a lot of stuff could be fixed locally, and if the place had a reasonable town anywhere near, you could probably buy replacement swords etc (or have them made)
But I would suspect recruits were fitted out by the parent unit on joining, so they probably turned up at the camp with the legionary HQ (or for auxiliaries the fort where the main part of the Auxilia was based. )
When the recruit had their kit and finished their training did anybody bother what the detachment they joined was wearing?
With regard to armour, apparently mail is easier and faster to put on and more 'comfortable'
But Segmentata is cheaper, uses less metal and so weighs less. It's also harder to clean (rolling it about in a barrel of sand isn't an option) I suspect it could have been faster to produce.
Looking at one of the sites producing equipment for reenactors https://www.soulofthewarrior.com/roman-armor properly made mail with riveted rings is roughly twice the price of decent segmentata which probably puts things in context :)
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 29, 2020, 12:51:11 PM
Quote from: DougM on August 29, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: Holly on August 29, 2020, 10:18:33 AM
The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?
I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings.
I think that various things were done at various levels. Some of it was by 'posting'. If you were in a cohort or half cohort stationed in a certain place, a lot of stuff could be fixed locally, and if the place had a reasonable town anywhere near, you could probably buy replacement swords etc (or have them made)
But I would suspect recruits were fitted out by the parent unit on joining, so they probably turned up at the camp with the legionary HQ (or for auxiliaries the fort where the main part of the Auxilia was based. )
When the recruit had their kit and finished their training did anybody bother what the detachment they joined was wearing?
With regard to armour, apparently mail is easier and faster to put on and more 'comfortable'
But Segmentata is cheaper, uses less metal and so weighs less. It's also harder to clean (rolling it about in a barrel of sand isn't an option) I suspect it could have been faster to produce.
Looking at one of the sites producing equipment for reenactors https://www.soulofthewarrior.com/roman-armor properly made mail with riveted rings is roughly twice the price of decent segmentata which probably puts things in context :)
Yep - my thoughts as well. I also considered whether recruits or drafts sent to join the legion would be kitted out at the depot with the armour at hand. And when they arrived, would the old sweats laugh at their new-fangled armour?
Quote from: DougM on August 29, 2020, 02:07:14 PM
Yep - my thoughts as well. I also considered whether recruits or drafts sent to join the legion would be kitted out at the depot with the armour at hand. And when they arrived, would the old sweats laugh at their new-fangled armour?
I suspect there would be an element of dumping the unsuitable crap on the newbie who's being stationed away. So you can book it out to him at full price because he knows no better and hasn't made the contacts yet to be able to get himself a better deal.
so do you think 'old hands' preferred mail to segmentata?
Quote from: Holly on August 29, 2020, 09:11:13 PM
so do you think 'old hands' preferred mail to segmentata?
I suspect that the capital cost being taken out of your pay meant that you probably tried to loot or otherwise acquire mail and just pay for segmentata ;)
an unsuspecting new recruit might be charged for mail but receive shiny new segmentata whilst old hands laugh and scheme behind his back
I suspect the centurion would make sure that he was the one who took the backhander to make sure the newbie got the kit 8)
Did the the greatn-grandsons of Marius's Mules still carry their own gear on campaign in EIR times? If so I'd expect the new recruits to end up with the heavier hamata (assuming, of course, there indeed were units with mixed armour).
Are there any comparative studies on the protection offered by segmentata and hamata?
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on August 30, 2020, 11:58:29 AM
Did the the greatn-grandsons of Marius's Mules still carry their own gear on campaign in EIR times? If so I'd expect the new recruits to end up with the heavier hamata (assuming, of course, there indeed were units with mixed armour).
Are there any comparative studies on the protection offered by segmentata and hamata?
On various websites various reenacters state their opinions. So Segmentata protects a smaller area better but hamata has better overall coverage
But I haven't found anything which warrants dignifying with the term 'study' :-[
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 30, 2020, 11:28:33 AM
I suspect the centurion would make sure that he was the one who took the backhander to make sure the newbie got the kit 8)
indeed....!
following on from this though I wonder how much DIY stuff went on in the rank and file eg someone going for a shorter mail shirt (or longer) according to taste and purse etc
Quote from: Holly on August 30, 2020, 02:09:03 PM
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 30, 2020, 11:28:33 AM
I suspect the centurion would make sure that he was the one who took the backhander to make sure the newbie got the kit 8)
indeed....!
following on from this though I wonder how much DIY stuff went on in the rank and file eg someone going for a shorter mail shirt (or longer) according to taste and purse etc
For a shorter mail shirt you just need a mail shirt and a pair of snips 8)
Longer would cost money, but you might have been able to buy/make your own, rings. You'd probably need them for patching and suchlike so somebody in the camp must have made them.
Roman Body Armour (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roman-Body-Armour-Hilary-Travis/dp/1445608030/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=roman+body+armour&qid=1598949046&sr=8-5) by John & Hilary Travis takes the view that for much of the period mail, segmented and scale armours tended to coexist within individual units and what one received tended to be most dependent upon what the armourers wanted to produce. This is turn was heavily influenced by the bits of armour returned to them for salvage, what was looted off bodies after a battle and generally what involved them in the least work to turn out a complete set of lorica.
BTW, this book is really good and has lots of pictures for those interested in minutiae of how these things were constructed and what they were like to wear.
Thanks Nick, that's what I was hoping to hear.
Quote from: NickHarbud on September 01, 2020, 09:40:27 AM
Roman Body Armour (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roman-Body-Armour-Hilary-Travis/dp/1445608030/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=roman+body+armour&qid=1598949046&sr=8-5) by John & Hilary Travis takes the view that for much of the period mail, segmented and scale armours tended to coexist within individual units and what one received tended to be most dependent upon what the armourers wanted to produce. This is turn was heavily influenced by the bits of armour returned to them for salvage, what was looted off bodies after a battle and generally what involved them in the least work to turn out a complete set of lorica.
BTW, this book is really good and has lots of pictures for those interested in minutiae of how these things were constructed and what they were like to wear.
purchased.....
Do any rules differentiate between the type (i.e. mail v segmenta) in terms of any effect? Or is it just the portrayal aspect that we are considering here?
I was under the impression it was a portrayal thing.....if we were going down the route of differentiating between armour types for mechanisms purposes then that would be a level of granularity that would make Phil Barker do a double take :)
I thought that was the case, but always useful to check.
The "old" WRG MI/LMI/MC classifications used to lump together leather, lesser or un-armoured types which to me always seemed a bit generic.
Possibly one for the rules discussion threads.
replied on that and see my comments about horse armour...under WRG it was much more improtant/differentiated!