Chedworth confirmed as 5th century villa

[Imperial Dave]

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-67947045.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17050418357917&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Very interesting and really thought provoking in terms of the context

[Jim Webster]

Yes I think it's beginning to look like things kept going in some places for some time. But then think of St Germanus! 

[Imperial Dave]

Yes. Just rereading around that time period. I am more and more convinced there was a functioning diocese at that point

[Keraunos]

Indeed.  Why do we assume that there was not a lot of continuity?  The problem is the invention of 'The Dark Ages' that began like a light being switched off (for Britain) in 410 AD.  When was this first thought up?  I'm sure the people of Britain at the time didn't see the lights going off!

[Erpingham]

Indeed.  Why do we assume that there was not a lot of continuity?  The problem is the invention of 'The Dark Ages' that began like a light being switched off (for Britain) in 410 AD.  When was this first thought up?  I'm sure the people of Britain at the time didn't see the lights going off!

It's an interesting question.  It's partially about chopping history into bits for the convenience of understanding. Long ago, when I was at school, history was in helpful bits Romans 43-410, Dark Ages 410-1066, Middle Ages 1066-1485.  Though I think there are other things at work post 410. I think, without being able to point directly at the evidence, that the Romans leaving was felt to lead to instant "barbarianisation".  We were immediately into a period of warlords and petty chieftains living in refurbished hill forts.

[nikgaukroger]

Think I posted about these back when they were released, but for those who like the immediate post Roman period in Britain they may find this series of podcasts interesting. Have a feeling the mosaic in question may have been mentioned.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjI5NzM4ZGU2ZmJkNDQwMDEyNjRhNTI2?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJhMzA3MGRhZDFkOTEwMDEyMWFmNGRm?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJiMTk5NDVkNjVmZDYwMDEyNDQyNTIx?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJiNDY1MTFjY2UyMDQwMDEyZTc3YTlj?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJiZWJlNjNhZTE0MzMwMDEzZTgzZDA0?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJjN2Y1OTNhNjM4NWUwMDE0NmYxMGE3?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJkMTJlNTBhZTcwNGUwMDExNjYzNzNl?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjI75a5mKr5AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQLA

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY29tL2hpc3RvcnlleHRyYQ/episode/NjJkYTVlY2RiZmUzZGQwMDEyYzk4MTQ2?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjwmfGXuNeDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

[Imperial Dave]

Thanks this is really useful!

[lionheartrjc]

There was a powerful meme about the Roman legions leaving Britain in 410.  I seem to remember a picture in a Ladybird book with a galley and the last legionaries boarding it. 

Because nobody was really looking for industry continuing into the 5th century (despite pockets of evidence it did, at Wroxeter for example), they didn't find it.  This sort of thing tends to reinforce existing assumptions and beliefs.  In history (and science) things slowly change and then suddenly the new paradigm appears to be accepted overnight.

Trade was going to and from Spain and Brittany through the 5th and most of the 6th centuries. Britain may have remained more connected to Europe than the history books taught us!

[nikgaukroger]

The "legions leaving" in 410 CE is a bit wrong anyway I think.

That is the date that it is said Roman officials were expelled by the (presumably) Romano-British. The troops (or at least the worthwhile ones)  would have left in 407 CE when the usurping Constantine III moved to Gaul.

But it remains the date usually quoted.

[Imperial Dave]

It's a whole thread in its own right...

[Keraunos]

There was a powerful meme about the Roman legions leaving Britain in 410.  I seem to remember a picture in a Ladybird book with a galley and the last legionaries boarding it. 

Because nobody was really looking for industry continuing into the 5th century (despite pockets of evidence it did, at Wroxeter for example), they didn't find it.  This sort of thing tends to reinforce existing assumptions and beliefs.  In history (and science) things slowly change and then suddenly the new paradigm appears to be accepted overnight.

Trade was going to and from Spain and Brittany through the 5th and most of the 6th centuries. Britain may have remained more connected to Europe than the history books taught us!

Ah, yes! I remember that Ladybird book.  Far better is Rosemary Sutcliffe's 'The Lantern Bearers', a wonderful evocation of continuity and change in the 5th Century.  Remarkable that it was written without the benefit of access to all that archaeology has revealed in the past 60 years.

[DBS]

I think one can partly blame Gildas and Bede.  Gildas is all doom and gloom, country quite literally going to hell in a handcart.  Of course, the very fact that a monk like Gildas is actually at work demonstrates Christianity has not withered.  Yes, he may have emigrated to Brittany, and be writing there, but he was still someone who had been raised a pious Christian half a century or more after the Romans "left".

Then Bede pushes the line that the British church is not really fit to be called that (and after all Christianity equals civilisation), but the English church, once his Germanic forebears have seen the light, is the salvation of the land's spirituality.