Hi All next question - what is the best way figure wise to represent Imitation legion/Romanized infantry -as Romans but with Greek helmets or as Thureophoroi with a good sword and a can do attitude
Quote from: shaun holdsworth on July 22, 2020, 12:23:42 PM
Hi All next question - what is the best way figure wise to represent Imitation legion/Romanized infantry -as Romans but with Greek helmets or as Thureophoroi with a good sword and a can do attitude
For the period of about 50BC I use the Irregular Miniatures figure RC109 Legionary in 'Eastern' helmet, i.e. imitation Legionary
He's pretty much the same as the Marian legionary, same shield etc, but has a 'Greek' helmet
I've used a number of Carthaginian veteran figures and mixed them up with some Marian Romans and then fleshed them out with anything with a scutum and mail coat. Fills out the ranks of my Armenians and Herodian Judaeans. They never win, but they look damn stylish as they march to their doom....
If the Kasr el-Harit scutum (http://www.roman-reenactor.com/scutum%20el%20fayum.html) is actually Ptolemaic - which it may very well be - then it suggests that they were equipped pretty close to the Roman model, though without the iron boss-plate on the shield that you can see on at least some real Roman shields, for instance on the Alter of Domitius Ahenobarbus. Similarly the Sokopnaiou Nesos sword (http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/9/) seems to be a Roman-style sword made in Egypt, although the date of the sword is not entirely clear - it may be too late to be Ptolemaic.
I remember an article in SS I think about late Ptolemaic inf. seamed to show thureophoroi with 2toned shields , but thats all I recall.
That would be based on the Sidon paintings (https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/Stock-Images/Rights-Managed/DAE-A0000549). Nick Sekunda argued (here (https://amazon.co.uk/Hellenistic-Infantry-Studies-History-Medieval/dp/8389786834/) and here (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seleucid-Ptolemaic-Reformed-Armies-168-145/dp/1874101035)) that they are the grave monuments of "Romanised" Ptolemaic infantry; but they might simply be "ordinary" mercenary thureophoroi - the names identify most if not all as Anatolians.
Most of them are unarmoured; one alone has a mailshirt (https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/Stock-Images/Rights-Managed/DAE-A0000548), though a short one without shoulder-pieces not the usual Roman legionary style, and he's the guy I identified in AMPW as a thorakites.
Sekunda thinks that the "two-tone" shields represent shading on all-white shields (https://i.imgur.com/fSsw7.jpg).
Woo £95 for basically an Osprey, mind you I got the Seleucid a couple years ago for a bit less and defo paid a lot less for your book (AMPW) a gold mine !
Quote from: shaun holdsworth on July 22, 2020, 06:15:59 PM
Woo £95 for basically an Osprey, mind you I got the Seleucid a couple years ago for a bit less and defo paid a lot less for your book (AMPW) a gold mine !
I picked them up when they were first published (He comments smugly)
But what intrigues me is that his more academic publication (fewer pretty pictures) is
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/8389786834/ and £17 second hand :o
me too Jim ;D
Quote from: Holly on July 22, 2020, 07:38:17 PM
me too Jim ;D
there's times when I suspect our average membership is so old, we should just have looked out of the window and watched them march past ;)
I cant believe the Montverts are that old but hey ho :o
Quote from: Jim Webster on July 22, 2020, 07:17:56 PM
Quote from: shaun holdsworth on July 22, 2020, 06:15:59 PM
Woo £95 for basically an Osprey, mind you I got the Seleucid a couple years ago for a bit less and defo paid a lot less for your book (AMPW) a gold mine !
I picked them up when they were first published (He comments smugly)
But what intrigues me is that his more academic publication (fewer pretty pictures) is
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/8389786834/ and £17 second hand :o
Got the Montverts back then as well - never found the arguments for widespread Romanisation to be convincing though. Anyone know how much extra material the more academic book has?
Quote from: nikgaukroger on July 23, 2020, 07:29:46 AMAnyone know how much extra material the more academic book has?
Not much. He does set out the inscriptional evidence at greater length, but it's not a huge advance on the Montverts.
Thanks.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on July 23, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Thanks.
In fact I felt that it wasn't as well argued as in the Montverts
It's worth keeping an eye on the gaming shows for montverts.
I've picked up a few at good prices (comparable to the histoire et collections rather than osprey)
Non historical gamers are especially good to check as they never think to check the prices on the internet first!
I even managed to pick up the Justinian one with the author near by and offering to autograph it.
Quote from: Mark G on July 23, 2020, 01:42:07 PM
I even managed to pick up the Justinian one with the author near by and offering to autograph it.
and reduce the value of the book.....?! ;D ;D ;D
That was part of the conversation, yes
Quote from: Mark G on July 23, 2020, 09:09:10 PM
That was part of the conversation, yes
genius.....
Sadly, the only Montvert I have is (and here's a surprise), Sassanian Armies. Nicolle illustrated by McBride.
I think I have all of them......I could sell them for a small fortune :)
Quote from: Holly on July 24, 2020, 08:12:20 AM
I think I have all of them......I could sell them for a small fortune :)
Yep, a quick glance over some of my books suggests that in extremis there's a good few would raise decent sums. Fugol, various first editions etc. I'm only sad that in the turbulence of life, I didn't manage to hang on to my first and second libraries.
Quote from: Holly on July 24, 2020, 08:12:20 AM
I think I have all of them......
How many are there? I've got Duncan's Achaemenid one, Karl Heinz Ranitzsch's Tang one, Nikonorov's Bactrian one, and Gorelik's
Warriors of Eurasia; I'm aware of the two Hellenistic ones, the Justinianic one, and the Sassanid one. Any I've missed?
Quote from: DougM on July 24, 2020, 07:59:19 AM
Sadly, the only Montvert I have is (and here's a surprise), Sassanian Armies. Nicolle illustrated by McBride.
Actually, that's not true, I have the KHR Tang one as well. The rest mostly left me cold as never been that interested in Hellenistic armies or warfare. Hoplites are essentially dull, and Alexander's a very unappealing character, as are most of his successors.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on July 24, 2020, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: Holly on July 24, 2020, 08:12:20 AM
I think I have all of them......
How many are there? I've got Duncan's Achaemenid one, Karl Heinz Ranitzsch's Tang one, Nikonorov's Bactrian one, and Gorelik's Warriors of Eurasia; I'm aware of the two Hellenistic ones, the Justinianic one, and the Sassanid one. Any I've missed?
well thats all the ones I have so if there are more I have missed out lol