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History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Duncan Head on September 14, 2017, 09:03:49 AM

Title: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Duncan Head on September 14, 2017, 09:03:49 AM
Oldest identified use of the ancestor of the modern zero symbol, not to be confused with other cultures' symbols for the same thing, of course. This "nothing" business gets complicated.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Mark G on September 14, 2017, 08:26:41 PM
I heard coverage on the radio this.morning too.

Interesting stuff
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Nick Harbud on September 15, 2017, 07:35:49 AM
I reckoned there was nothing in it.
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Patrick Waterson on September 15, 2017, 08:31:36 AM
 :)

There is of course a difference between zero and nothing.  Zero is an intermediate state between positive and negative.  Nothing is the absence of even zero.
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Andreas Johansson on September 15, 2017, 02:40:00 PM
Unfortunately for that idea, the concept of zero rather predates that of negative numbers.
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Patrick Waterson on September 15, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
But the status (as opposed to perception) of zero is not altered by the use of negative or even irrational numbers.  Its usage among humans may be adjusted or refined by their (re)discovery, but is not the core of mathematics the belief that numerical relationships are timelessly true and invariant whether or not they have yet been discovered and/or employed by humans?
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Andreas Johansson on September 15, 2017, 09:03:23 PM
I'm not sure if you'd get a consensus about that among philosophers of mathematics. But there are definitely meaningful mathematical structures that have zero but no negative numbers.
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Patrick Waterson on September 16, 2017, 08:19:50 AM
Indeed, although they are in the nature of things mathematical incomplete as they would anyway need substantive negative numbers to compute deductions, a deducted positive number being to all intents and purposes a temporary negative number.
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Erpingham on November 07, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
A new development in the tale :

http://www.medievalists.net/2017/11/historians-challenge-oxfords-claim-worlds-oldest-zero/
Title: Re: Oldest use of zero symbol in Indian MS
Post by: Jim Webster on November 08, 2017, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: Erpingham on November 07, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
A new development in the tale :

http://www.medievalists.net/2017/11/historians-challenge-oxfords-claim-worlds-oldest-zero/
"The international team ends its article with a plea to Oxford University's Library that important and complex scholarly topics should be published through established academic channels involving peer-review, and not through sensationalizing press releases to the media."

That would be the end of civilisation as we know it  ;)