Longbows and armour - more experimental evidence

[Erpingham]

This video from Tod's armoury shows an interesting set up involving some serious expertise.  Many arrows were broken in the making of this film, in glorious slow motion.  One of the better videos of its type, I think.

I wouldn't have liked being inside the armour - it would certainly hurt.  Plenty to still debate on impacts in different area with thinner armour, of course.

[Nick Harbud]

Way above average for this type of video - good find Anthony!

I notice the breast plate they used was based upon late 14^th century steel original.  Certainly for the intended comparison with Agincourt this is reasonable.  However, I would also like to see a further trial against an earlier or softer iron example to see what difference it makes.

[Erpingham]

Yes, their deliberate attempt to place it historically was one of the advantages.  Earlier armies wouldn't have had armour this well fashioned in steel but would they have faced as strong a bow(and, interconnectedly, as heavy an arrow)?  How quickly archers came to use Mary Rose power bows within the development of the arm is an unanswered question (and probably will remain so unless we get some earlier longbow finds).

[Imperial Dave]

I can remember doing a 'live fire' demonstration during a reenactment show 20 years ago. We used 60lb draw strength longbows with blunts and invited one of the 'clankies' (fully plate armoured reenactor) to walk towards an archer whilst being flat shot at. Even with just a 60lb draw strength, the poor chap visibly staggered every time he got hit with an arrow to the point where he was stopped in his tracks 10 yards out....

Happy days 

[Patrick Waterson]

Dave's 'shoot' does correlate nicely with the slowing effect of longbow archery noted in several battle accounts.

How quickly archers came to use Mary Rose power bows within the development of the arm is an unanswered question (and probably will remain so unless we get some earlier longbow finds).

Which may even confuse the picture if longbow archers used bows configured for their personal strength rather than 'off the peg' bows of specific draw weights.  Most archer cultures seem to have fitted the bow power to the user: exactly if the bow was his own; approximately if the bow was government issue.

[Erpingham]

Which may even confuse the picture if longbow archers used bows configured for their personal strength rather than 'off the peg' bows of specific draw weights.  Most archer cultures seem to have fitted the bow power to the user: exactly if the bow was his own; approximately if the bow was government issue.

I think we are talking about shifting the range of weights, because, as you say, some degree of appropriateness for the physique of the archer is likely to have been applied.  As an number of proficient archers went up, the demand for stronger bows would increase.

[Anton]

Very interesting Anthony.

It made me think of the later battle of Flodden.  There the well armoured Scots nobles march straight through the arrows and close with the English Bill men where they were defeated.  The usual explanation is that the ground disrupted their (pike) formation and that they were tired.  Looking at this video it occurs to me that many of them might also be shook up by the impact of the English arrows even though they failed to penetrate their armour.

[Erpingham]

Very interesting Anthony.

It made me think of the later battle of Flodden.  There the well armoured Scots nobles march straight through the arrows and close with the English Bill men where they were defeated.  The usual explanation is that the ground disrupted their (pike) formation and that they were tired.  Looking at this video it occurs to me that many of them might also be shook up by the impact of the English arrows even though they failed to penetrate their armour.

Though the Scottish front ranks are also said to have had pavises, which would have helped.

On the effects of all these non-penetrating hits, Tod Todeschini has remarked he'd be interested to do some tests with experts on modern combat armours to look at how longbow impacts would compare injuries under modern armours.  I hope he does.

Thinking about it, I'd like to know how context affects it.  It seems to me that blunt force battering is going to be like kicks and punches, not necessarily having a quick knockdown effect especially when the adrenaline is flowing.  But the effects continue to develop after the blows and so the injured person will perhaps tire, become less mobile, perhaps less alert as the battle continues.  But I'd like to see some real scientific evidence on this sort of thing.

[Patrick Waterson]

Thinking about it, I'd like to know how context affects it.  It seems to me that blunt force battering is going to be like kicks and punches, not necessarily having a quick knockdown effect especially when the adrenaline is flowing.  But the effects continue to develop after the blows and so the injured person will perhaps tire, become less mobile, perhaps less alert as the battle continues.  But I'd like to see some real scientific evidence on this sort of thing.

Dress a boxer in armour, give him the arrow treatment.  Ask him afterwards how it compares with going through a boxing match.

[Imperial Dave]

you do feel beaten up!

[aligern]

At Flodden the Scots come down a steep slope, into a marshy bottomm and then up a slope to get at the English. It struck ne when looking at the ground that the effect if the bows would be on those ranks behind the pavise bearers who had rather less armour. Getting pikes and pavises down and then through tge marsh and up  the slope would be hard enough to disadvantage the front ranks, but behind them would be a chaos of wounded men as they tried to keep a footing on the hill.
Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Which would all come together to explain how their 'very good order after the German fashion' started to come apart as they met the English lines, although Brian Tuke, Henry VIII's secretary, wrote that "the English halberdiers decided the whole affair, so that in the battle the bows and ordnance were of little use."  As this was an official diplomatic communication, it may not have been the whole truth and the longbow shafts may have done more damage than Tuke allows.

[Erpingham]

Which would all come together to explain how their 'very good order after the German fashion' started to come apart as they met the English lines, although Brian Tuke, Henry VIII's secretary, wrote that "the English halberdiers decided the whole affair, so that in the battle the bows and ordnance were of little use."  As this was an official diplomatic communication, it may not have been the whole truth and the longbow shafts may have done more damage than Tuke allows.

Though the Trewe Encounter and Hall's Chronicle say the same.  The Trewe Encounter blames the weather - the wind was against the English and there was "sodden raine", which I think means sudden rather than very wet (or even the exclamation I make when caught out in it ).  Hall reckons the issue was the Scots armour.

the kynge of Scottes in hys awne person marched, beynge accompagned
wyth many Bishoppes, Erles, Barons, knyghtes and Gentelmen of the Realme, a great
number of commons, all chosen men with speres on foote, whiche were the most assuredly
harnesed that hath bene sene, and that the tallest and goodlyest personages with all, and
they abode the most daungerous shot of arrowes, which sore them noyed, and yet except it
hit them in some bare place it dyd them no hurt.

[Patrick Waterson]

Putting them all together would suggest that the disruption caused by archery was minimal and incidental; while it did not help the Scots, it apparently did not hinder them much either although it 'sore them noyed', which points to some effect, perhaps the battering as experienced by Dave's re-enactor.

The assertion that 'unless it hit them in some bare place it dyd them no hurt' would accord with its casualty-causing effect being limited to the less-well-armoured middle and rear rankers, it being doubtful that the 'bare place' would have resulted from any of them doing a 'Braveheart'.

[Edit: typo - 'assertion' replaces 'asserion'.]