I asked this on Fanatics a while back and didn't get a great answer.
Any thoughts on Old Saxon standards c.800, or Wend standards from the same era.
Thanks
This depends a bit on whether you see a continuity between Northern European pagan cultures or not. I tend to the view that across the border from Rome there is a culture which lasts all the way to the conversion to Christianity , though it does mutate . The military culture has strong religious links and maintains certain war related cults such as wolf warriors and bear warriors and fighting naked in a maddened state.
On the basis of a continuity I would go with animal totems for the Saxons and Wends. Both were aggressive pagans and we could expect standards, if they had them, to reflect earlier paganism.
Contra that interpretation you could go with the view that there is no evidence so give them nothing (some really dry academics would do that), or you could do what many wargamers do and fill in with something borrowed from a nearby society. Wargames Flag manufacturers invent really pretty looking banners for Vikings for which the evidencev is scant. When we do get representations of flags, much later, t hey are really crude. So the lovely creations that LBM produce are most unlikey, but they look good. On the basis that these Vikings were also pagan hold outs you could use the Viking flags too.
Roy
Good point about the LBM flags, Roy (and a lot else) ... I had this discussion with the guys a Gripping Beast a while back (when fantasy ancients was running riot) ... their response was to ask what evidence I could come up with that they weren't right ... Good point, I thought - except not actually history (at least not the way I was taught it) .. ;)
Phil
Its a difficult point isn't it. On the one hand we want troop types and colours, standards, weaponry, to be soundly historically based, on the other we have large gaps in our knowledge. These gaps occur even in periods well provided with written and pictorial sources. I was debating berserks with someone recently. There is a range of choices, They might not exist in other than legend, there might be toughs who hired out as bodyguards/enforcers, they may be in small groups who followed a cult, there might be fair sized units of them, enough to generate a war-games unit. Added to this the meaning might change over time. They might look like a chap with no shirt holding two weapons, they might be a man in a tunic, no metallic body armour, but a helmet, weapon held two handed and wearing a helmet maybe they would wear a bear pelt ?
I think we'd mostly reject a unit of bare chested two handed weapon wielders. The best outcome for me would be a few chaps, part of a leader's group, but not all of it and generally, helmet, slung shield, and two handed axe or spear.
Such a conclusion draws howls of protest on the basis of "How can you prove that?, rather a mirror of the suggested "Can't prove they were not that!' The difficulty is that in the end we have to weigh up the sources and take a judgement. If we move beyond the sources then I suspect we mostly agree that we should not do anything too outrageous. Huns , for example very likely had draco standards, yet we see them represented as racks of skulls interspersed with horsetails. Not only is there no evidence for this, but it looks horrendous. It goes back, I think to an original Mikes Models Hun standard. The LBM stuff is lovely to look at, I confess to using it for some Arab units, but they look more like carpets than standards.
On the point of Viking period standards, as said, when we start to get pics of standards they are small and crudely drawn. I rather think real life ones were like that too.
Roy
The white horse is "traditionally" supposed to have been the standard of the Old Saxon leader Widukind in the 8th century - http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-nw-w).html (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-nw-w).html). What basis there may be for this I am not sure.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 10, 2014, 09:13:21 PM
The white horse is "traditionally" supposed to have been the standard of the Old Saxon leader Widukind in the 8th century - http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-nw-w).html (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-nw-w).html). What basis there may be for this I am not sure.
Note that it's supposed to have been his emblem
after his baptism following defeat by the Franks.
The German WP refers to it as a "legend" (while failing to note where and when the legend comes from).
True - someone on the Flags site says that before the conversion he would have flown a black horse on yellow, which seems even more speculative. But others link the white horse to the first pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon arrivals, which - if there is indeed anything in it at all - would presumably put white horse emblems on the Continent in the 5th-6th centuries as well.
Pretty dubious historically but the the best we've got for a wargames figure, I'd say.
A white horse is, as said, the traditional symbol of Kent, though that is a Jutish kingdom rather than Saxon. Looked for references, but the earliest appears to be 16th century, though that is lijely to be based upon medieval heraldry which may reflect A genuine tradition and interesting that the same sort of tradition holds on the continent.
Is it Nennius who has the Britons represented by a red dragon and the Saxons by a white. Or is that Geoffrey of Monmouth?
Would the horse be a figure or be painted or sewn upon a flag?
Roy
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 11, 2014, 08:44:54 AM
True - someone on the Flags site says that before the conversion he would have flown a black horse on yellow, which seems even more speculative. But others link the white horse to the first pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon arrivals, which - if there is indeed anything in it at all - would presumably put white horse emblems on the Continent in the 5th-6th centuries as well.
Perhaps we should note here the theory that the initial Anglo-Saxons have a bit of a horse cult going on, based on the fact their leaders are both called horse names (Hengist and Horsa)? We might add the Scandinavian pagan tendency to sacrifice horses, which may have been more widespread. I'd suggest, as we have no firm evidence but legends of horse banners, they might be fielded with some plausible speculation.
Quote from: aligern on April 11, 2014, 08:59:29 AM
Is it Nennius who has the Britons represented by a red dragon and the Saxons by a white. Or is that Geoffrey of Monmouth?
Geoffrey of Monmouth, Part V, Prophecies of Merlin.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 11, 2014, 09:15:22 AM
Perhaps we should note here the theory that the initial Anglo-Saxons have a bit of a horse cult going on, based on the fact their leaders are both called horse names (Hengist and Horsa)?
A fair rundown of the state of play is this paper by Jennifer Neville; the link (http://wzeu.ask.com/r?t=p&d=eu&s=uk&c=a&app=a16&dqi=&askid=&l=dir&o=7323&oo=0&sv=0a6d00f5&ip=4f4107b2&id=1F8B02859C5140BF2C246D064134E021&q=Anglo-saxon+Horse+Cult&p=1&qs=1&ac=24&g=c73dAv3h8+ZG+S&ocq=0&ocp=0&ocu=0&ocf=0&qa1=0&cu.wz=0&en=te&io=0&b=a003&tp=d&ec=1&ex=tsrc%3Dtled&pt=Travel%2C%20Treasure%2C%20Totem%3A%20The%20Anglo-Saxon%20Horse%20-%20Early%20Music%20Online&u=http://digirep.rhul.ac.uk/file/16d4c0bc-008f-6b0b-5bd5-a2bbb02c53ae/5/Horse%20ASE%2004%2010.doc) goes directly to the paper.
This is very encouraging.
Being hopeless at detail painting, to find good ground for badly painted banners is just what i wanted to hear.
A touch of false modesty there, I think, Mark ... ;)
Phil
Washes cover a multitude of sins, but my detail work is woeful
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on April 11, 2014, 12:28:23 PM
Quote from: aligern on April 11, 2014, 08:59:29 AM
Is it Nennius who has the Britons represented by a red dragon and the Saxons by a white. Or is that Geoffrey of Monmouth?
Geoffrey of Monmouth, Part V, Prophecies of Merlin.
And also "The History of the Britons" (often attributed to Nennius), section 42.
Christianised Saxons could have used Christian symbols by c.800, perhaps. Too late for the earlier Chi-Rho, but the "XP" variants were around by this period, and also the "Alpha" and "Omega". A Google search for "Chi-Rho" will bring in some datable manuscript examples that might serve, maybe most likely a simple cross.
Quote from: David Kush on April 10, 2014, 02:10:41 AM
I asked this on Fanatics a while back and didn't get a great answer.
Any thoughts on Old Saxon standards c.800, or Wend standards from the same era.
Hi David,
Since you are also referring to the Wends, I guess you are interested in "continental" Saxon standards. As Saxon culture was very similar to its Danish, Angle or Jute counterparts, it may be assumed that standards displayed similar totems. Horses were considered sacred, so horse standards must have been abundant.
Two federal states in the north of Germany still sport a horse in their coat of arms today (Lower Saxony and North-Rhine Westphalia). See attached website addresses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Rhine-Westphalia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Coat_of_arms_of_Lower_Saxony.svg
Other animals, such as the bear, boar, stag, snake, cock, eagle and other birds will have featured as well.
Robert
Further to Robert's posting about horses, although the pictorial evidence is late (Bayeux Tapestry), dragon banners, maybe even Roman-style draco standards, could be another possibility for the Saxons. There's some question, because of their often stylised nature, as to whether some creatures, particularly in the various northern-European serpentine interlace artforms, have horse or dragon heads, for instance.
Although there's a school of thought that would like to see the Saxons continuing to use dracos from Roman times onwards, as more probably happened in Britain for the native Britons (plausibly the original basis of the Welsh red dragon, for example), what evidence there is makes it perhaps more likely the Saxons adopted them after seeing the British standards. Depends how far you might want to stretch the point!
Henry of Huntingdon (writing in the 12th century) does mention Cuthred, King of the West Saxons in Britain, as using a golden dragon standard in 752, but unfortunately he's not the most reliable source for this period, so may have back-projected it from his own time. The standard isn't mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle reports that cover this battle at Burford, certainly, but they are extremely scant.
I think we should be careful transfering what the Anglo-Saxons did back to the continental Saxons. While I believe the evidence does point to continuing contact, in England there were other elements in play e.g. a different relationship to the Franks.
I think one might make a case for the dragon standard being derived from a relationship with Roman-ess (legitimate, civilised, Christian) rather than pagan background. So Charlemagne used them, the kings of Wessex did and Holy Roman emperors did and it seems that they were used by the Spanish too.
Robert's point further reinforces what has already been said - a traditional association with horse symbols, which may have a ritual element. Just the ticket if you want to use Rohirrim flags :)
Good point about the transferrence of symbols and their variable importance to different peoples, Anthony.
Of course, the animal symbols Robert mentioned all have to be transferred from other peoples' usage as standards to the Continental Saxons as well, the problem really being that the Saxons (thoughtlessly!) left no written or illustrated works to provide evidence for their own preferences. Horses were important symbolically across quite a swathe of northwestern Europe, including Britain, from pre-Roman times after all (e.g. the numerous representations on Celtic coins, a symbolism traceable back as far as the Uffington White Horse in Oxfordshire, dated by optical stimulated luminescence in the late 1990s to c.1400-600 BC).
If we're looking for an important Continental Saxon symbol, perhaps the more unique one might be the irminsul, the apparently sacred pillar or tree trunk mentioned in the Royal Frankish Annals, though whether this would have been used as a military standard too is open to question. It's possible this pillar/tree symbolism may have led to the tall shaft crosses, or high crosses, of the Anglo-Saxon Christian period in Britain and Ireland, or played a role in their development from native standing stones (given they were commonly decorated with foliate artwork).
Not sure this all helps David's original query, but there have at least been plenty of "thoughts" ;D