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General Category => Army Research => Topic started by: David Kush on January 24, 2016, 04:38:22 PM

Title: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: David Kush on January 24, 2016, 04:38:22 PM
Does anyone have suggestions for 15mm figures for Cypriot/Phoenician armies c.500BC? Based on the illustrations in the WRG Assyrian... book, nothing I could find looks quite right. Why is all the close fighting infantry a choice between Spear and Auxilia, should they look alike but based differently, or were they recruited from different sources and should look different? What about chariots?
Thanks for any help -David Kush
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Duncan Head on January 24, 2016, 05:00:48 PM
By 500 BC, the Cypriot infantry at least are likely to be all Sp, indistinguishable from Greek hoplites - Herodotos says that their ship crews were like the Greeks in 480, "The Cyprians furnished a hundred and fifty ships; for their equipment, their princes wore fillets wrapped around their heads, and the people wore tunics, but in all else they were like the Greeks".
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: David Kush on January 25, 2016, 03:10:31 AM
Thanks Duncan. By what date did stop being Auxilia and become "Greek" in appearance Spearman?
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Duncan Head on January 25, 2016, 09:01:57 AM
Not sure. In fact I'm not sure the Cypriots ever were Ax, the option may have been in there chiefly for the Phoenicians - Herodotos' description of their marines with javelins suggests Ax. For Archaic Cyprus, mostly what we have is statuettes of warriors with helmet and shield, and not a lot more detail, so it's hard to be certain.
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: eques on April 14, 2016, 01:28:30 PM
http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/products/mpa59
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Patrick Waterson on April 14, 2016, 07:33:26 PM
Quote from: David Kush on January 24, 2016, 04:38:22 PM
What about chariots?

The best bet is probably the Amathus sarcophagus (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/74.51.2453/), which has two fairly clear chariot representations.  Picture here (http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/gr/web-large/DT257.jpg).  It is possible these are civil chariots, but war chariots would probably have looked similar.  Or we may be seeing one of each.
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Duncan Head on April 15, 2016, 08:41:47 AM
Look also at the "additional images" - http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/242006

The other long side of that sarcophagus has hoplites on it, bare-headed and apparently unarmoured.
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Duncan Head on April 15, 2016, 09:19:48 AM
As to Cypriot chariots, earlier examples than the Amathus sarcophagus are the chariots buried in the royal tombs at Cypriot Salamis. These are four-horse vehicles close to the Assyrian tradition. There's a reconstruction in Peter Connolly's Greek Armies/Greece and Rome at War - can't find it online at the moment. There are also dozens if not hundreds of terracotta chariot models - http://www.ashmolean.org/ash/amps/cyprus/AncCyp-Ter-AN1974.349.html for one example, a quick search will turn up loads. And there's a J H Crouwel article available via Google Books (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6JO0PkRqpCsC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=%22chariots+in+iron+age+cyprus%22&source=bl&ots=qIFR2RTorh&sig=vGY-4xcV25hsrlzmwfK8LZ33zYI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO9vCFmpDMAhVELhoKHQW2B_MQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=%22chariots%20in%20iron%20age%20cyprus%22&f=false).
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Patrick Waterson on April 15, 2016, 11:54:08 AM
Excellent, Duncan.

As the Amathus sarcophagus is dated to the period 500-475 BC, the presence of the hoplites should be good confirmation that they were in vogue c.500 BC.

Quote from: David Kush on January 24, 2016, 04:38:22 PM
... should [the infantry] look alike but based differently, or were they recruited from different sources and should look different?

Just a 'best guess' here, but men from each city would probably look similar or even identical: Cypriot cities were still ruled by kings at this period, and kings still tended to uniform or at least 'similarise' their troops, so all the men from one city should look quite similar while troops from different cities would probably look different, at least in shield designs and conceivably in hues of clothing, if only borders of cloaks and/or tunics.  Beyond that I hand over to those more knowledgeable than myself.
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Duncan Head on April 15, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on April 15, 2016, 11:54:08 AM
As the Amathus sarcophagus is dated to the period 500-475 BC

"2nd quarter" - so 475-450, he said pedantically.
Title: Re: Cypriot & Phoenician
Post by: Patrick Waterson on April 15, 2016, 03:49:34 PM
Or rather, accurately. :)