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History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Duncan Head on October 12, 2017, 09:02:18 AM

Title: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Duncan Head on October 12, 2017, 09:02:18 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41567391
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Andreas Johansson on October 12, 2017, 09:18:48 AM
Curiously, the text doesn't seem to say if the textiles themselves were of local or imported origin, tho the discussion seems to assume the former.
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Erpingham on October 12, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on October 12, 2017, 09:18:48 AM
Curiously, the text doesn't seem to say if the textiles themselves were of local or imported origin, tho the discussion seems to assume the former.

It does say

She became interested in the forgotten fragments after realising the material had come from central Asia, Persia and China.

Even if the clothes were made locally, they were constructed from imported luxury goods, which I would assume included the embroidery.  I must admit, I'm struggling a bit with why we should assume it had religious significance, rather than looked pretty.  We know very well that the trade routes to import it existed. 
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Andreas Johansson on October 12, 2017, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Erpingham on October 12, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
It does say

She became interested in the forgotten fragments after realising the material had come from central Asia, Persia and China.
Ah, thanks, somehow missed that. I agree there seems no pressing reason to assume it had religious significance to the end-users. Indeed, if leaving out the "friend of God" bit is theologically odd, that sits more easily with a purely decorative than religious function.
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Erpingham on October 12, 2017, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on October 12, 2017, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Erpingham on October 12, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
It does say

She became interested in the forgotten fragments after realising the material had come from central Asia, Persia and China.
Ah, thanks, somehow missed that. I agree there seems no pressing reason to assume it had religious significance to the end-users. Indeed, if leaving out the "friend of God" bit is theologically odd, that sits more easily with a purely decorative than religious function.

It is, I suppose, possible it is talismanic.  A Viking might then use it for its "lucky" characteristics.  I can't see that these people can be Muslims - Muslims had (and have) very strict burial rituals, which don't include grave goods.
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Patrick Waterson on October 12, 2017, 08:47:01 PM
And few if any Vikings would have been readers of Arabic.
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Jim Webster on October 12, 2017, 09:55:56 PM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on October 12, 2017, 08:47:01 PM
And few if any Vikings would have been readers of Arabic.
what struck me with the design was that you could be a reader of Arabic, but still might not recognise the writing unless you were familiar with the cultural stylisations
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Patrick Waterson on October 13, 2017, 09:24:38 AM
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 12, 2017, 09:55:56 PM
what struck me with the design was that you could be a reader of Arabic, but still might not recognise the writing unless you were familiar with the cultural stylisations

That too, placing at one further remove any possibility that the cloth could indicate any degree of Koranic devotion among its Viking wearers.

It looks to me as if this is simply a case of high-value cloth being highly valued, pattern or no.
Title: Re: Vikings used Islamic text in funerary textiles
Post by: Erpingham on October 13, 2017, 10:26:29 AM
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on October 13, 2017, 09:24:38 AM

It looks to me as if this is simply a case of high-value cloth being highly valued, pattern or no.

Agree.  Unless there is some other evidence to suggest a religious purpose, the role as high value goods seems more likely than a form of Islamic/Viking fusion of burial practice.