http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8488215
Maybe some of these tournament match-ups may be OK after all.
Except it would have travelled there via the overland Spice route, and then possibly been traded via China or Korea. Or are you reviving the Tokharian heresy Mark? ;-)
More coverage:
http://japandailypress.com/ancient-roman-jewelry-unearthed-from-japanese-tomb-255113
Quote from: DougM on June 30, 2012, 02:45:47 AM
Except it would have travelled there via the overland Spice route, and then possibly been traded via China or Korea.
Indirect trade is the obvious answer. Why then the speculation about Roman "influence" in Japan in these articles?
Because even making distant people like, and preserve, your pretty beads is a form of influence?
Quote from: Duncan Head on July 03, 2012, 03:45:07 PM
Because even making distant people like, and preserve, your pretty beads is a form of influence?
Hmmm... But did they know where they came from, or were they as ignorant of the details of the West as the Romans were of the Far East?
Buyer : I like these beads - very shiny
Seller : Yes, they've just come in from China
Buyer : I've never seen such Chinese beads before!
Seller : These come all the way from the mysterious West
Buyer : Wow, that explains the massive price tag!
Mysterious west was good for a 100% mark up, especially if her next door couldn't get any
Jim
And now, http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201411130064 -
QuoteKASHIHARA, Nara Prefecture--A glass dish unearthed from a burial mound here is the first of its kind confirmed to have come to Japan from the Roman Empire, a research team said.
A round cut glass bowl, discovered with the glass plate, was found to have originated in Sassanid Persia (226-651), the researchers said.
The dish and bowl were retrieved together from the No. 126 tumulus of the Niizawa Senzuka cluster of ancient graves, a national historic site. The No. 126 tumulus dates back to the late fifth century.
...
"The dish was likely produced around the Mediterranean Sea and then transferred to Sassanid Persia," ... "After it was painted there, the plate was probably taken to Japan."
...
"Because the glass dish may have been transported via Central Asia, it is no wonder that there was a time lag (between its production and arrival in Japan)."
Nice to see the Silk Road working both ways. This emergence of Roman-origin items in Japanese tombs may say more about Japanese interaction/trade with the mainland than about Roman trade with the Far East, although it certainly helps to confirm the latter.
The suggestion that the plate was made in the Roman empire, painted in the Persian empire, and then shipped via Central Asia, does bear out what was said earlier in this thread about indirect trade.
And of all the mental images that we have of Imperial Rome, a source of exotic glass trinkets is probably not high up the list.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on November 19, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
Nice to see the Silk Road working both ways. This emergence of Roman-origin items in Japanese tombs may say more about Japanese interaction/trade with the mainland than about Roman trade with the Far East, although it certainly helps to confirm the latter.
Well the silk road had to work both ways, one cannot imagine China pouring silk into the west for centuries without ever getting paid for it 8)
I think the problem is that the silk road is largely a 'literary artifact' in that we read about it and its importance but we don't see the results
We do find some silk and other exotic goods, but by definition silk and spices are consumable commodities.
Whatever was sent back probably fell into the same category, even silver would have ended up being reworked from coinage or bullion into locally produced artifacts.
It would be interesting to see how many examples of Japanese manufacture have made it west
Jim
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 19, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
Well the silk road had to work both ways, one cannot imagine China pouring silk into the west for centuries without ever getting paid for it 8)
Apparently much of the payment was in silver, leading to an empire-wide shortage by Diocletian's time. (This is just memory of something read - no reference, sorry.)
Quote
It would be interesting to see how many examples of Japanese manufacture have made it west
Before Honda, Hitachi, etc., naturally. Iron (http://donwagner.dk/KoreanFe/KoreanFe.html) and pottery (http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Japanese_pottery_and_porcelain?lang=en) seem to have been strictly one-way. The only Japanese contribution that appears, or seems to appear, outside the home islands is drawings and figurines similar to the enigmatic dogu (http://unmyst3.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/dogu-statues.html) of the Jomon period, e.g. those found at Mohenjo Daro (although I see more differences (http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Mohenjo-daro?lang=en#Dancing_Girl) than similarities).
Then again, if this site (http://www.ancient-code.com/structure-japan-similar-structure-mars/) can be believed, Kofun period tomb architecture was exported quite a long way ...
Hmm... declining western empire, silver shortage as wealth being sent east for goods, sounds familiar, presumably they couldn't print more money in those days ;)
Quote from: Jason Thorns on November 19, 2014, 10:29:08 PM.... presumably they couldn't print more money in those days ;)
Reducing the silver content of the denarius is pretty much the same thing!
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 20, 2014, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: Jason Thorns on November 19, 2014, 10:29:08 PM.... presumably they couldn't print more money in those days ;)
Reducing the silver content of the denarius is pretty much the same thing!
I remember reading that one Roman 'silver' coin found in Britain not only contained no silver, but was predominantly composed of lead from which the naturally occurring silver had been removed. It struck me as an almost 'negative' silver coinage ;D
Jim
What would the latin be for quantitative debasing?
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 19, 2014, 12:49:34 PMIt would be interesting to see how many examples of Japanese manufacture have made it west
As Patrick says, not much. So how did the Japanese pay for their Chinese silk and swords, Roman glass, or Korean metalwork?
The
Account of the Wa in the Jin dynastic history mentions the tribute brought to China by Yayoi Japanese embassies in the 3rd century:
"They have arrived here with your tribute, consisting of four male slaves and six female slaves, together with two bolts of twenty feet of cloth with designs."
"This delegation visited the capital and presented thirty male and female slaves. It also offered five thousand white gems and two pieces of carved jade, as well as twenty bolts of brocade with designs."
So perhaps Japan exchanged slaves, patterned textiles, and local semi-precious stones for their luxury imports? (Apparently "Japanese jade" is "really just white agate speckled with spinach-green" - http://www.bestfromjapan.com/faq/topic.cfm?topicid=93.)