https://mandascott.co.uk/boudica-boudicca-boadicea-whats-in-a-name/
interesting little article on 'Boudega' that nicely summarises some thoughts around this iconic figure in British history
Queen Victoria must be a title - who would name a child Victoria?
On the delightfully romantic notion that Britain would have remained free and Celtic, if only we'd kept the Druids - an interesting speculation in search of some evidence?
Indeed.
"If we're going to get through the next few years, we need a change of narrative so profound that our entire culture changes direction. We need not just new stories, but a whole new shape to what a story is. And it will start with our writing."
I can sympathise with that, but would prefer that the stories be true.
as an aside I was 'taught' that "bodug" was the correct form regardless of whether it was a title or name
Quote from: Holly on March 11, 2020, 12:26:27 PM
as an aside I was 'taught' that "bodug" was the correct form regardless of whether it was a title or name
I was taught Boudica (one C) and Ee-kay-nee at university in the 70s. So, there is a degree of fighting 50 year old battles here. However, I do see that she is fighting against a tide of "popular" history - that loose knowledge perpetuated by journalists and TV commentators. That said, I've not heard anyone say Boadicea for ages.
I'm disappointed. There is no explanation as to why anyone would want to be confused with a Spanish wine cellar, either as a title or a given name.
???
;D
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That said, I've not heard anyone say Boadicea for ages.
You've not heard me! I tend to stick to what I first learned. The varying standards applied to names are interesting - we quite happily talk about Philip and Alexander, or Mark Antony. I can see the point of correcting an old typo (though then the Grampian Mountains have a problem), but where there's an established Latinised or Anglicised form of a name I don't see huge benefit in using the original (especially where the original isn't known). I feel somewhat the same about transliterating Greek kappa to k.
Quote from: RichT on March 12, 2020, 10:07:33 AMI feel somewhat the same about transliterating Greek kappa to k.
I on the other hand, and sorry that this is digressing from Boudega And The Utopian Druids, like k if only to get round the problem of mispronouncing c-for-kappa as soft, as in "Thusydides". What does vex me a little is that those who render kappa as k also tend to render chi as kh; if we'd standardised on k and ch it would be clearer at a glance what the original spelling was.
The "traditional" pronunciation of classical names is alluded to in the article. My ancient history taught me about Alky -by- ad - ees. One of my room mates at uni was taught about Al-sib-ee-aydees. Took us a while to realise we were talking about same bloke.
Then there is that fear that, if you do pronounce it correctly, you'll be thought pretentious. So See-zer it is (unless being sick on a bus).
To digress further (or rather to concentrate on "what's in a name" at the expense of Boudicca):
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I on the other hand, and sorry that this is digressing from Boudega And The Utopian Druids, like k if only to get round the problem of mispronouncing c-for-kappa as soft, as in "Thusydides".
But is Thusydides - the standard English pronuncation, Thyoo-sid-id-eez - a mispronunciation? If you mean to pronounce it like Ancient Greek it might be better to say Thoo-kud-id-airs (though that is uncertain - the ancient pronunciation of upsilon and eta are, as I understand it, largely guesses).
Thyoo-sid-id-eez
Thyoo-kid-id-eez
Thoo-kid-id-ees
Thoo-kud-id-airs
Which is correct and which is a mispronunciation? At any rate I think Thyoo-kid-id-eez is neither one thing nor the other. Since I don't know how it would be pronounced in ancient Greek I prefer to just pronounce it in the (now quite ancient) Anglicised form of Thyoo-sid-id-eez and write Thucydides.
That said I'm not wild about Sel-yoo-suss for Seleukos. I don't know what to think - it's a mess.
what have I started...?
on a serious note, not having had any form of classical education I have only picked up bits and pieces here and there from others so am unsure whether I am pronouncing things 'correctly' or not or in this case which is the established way of pronouncing things
Seleucid was always sell-oo-kid for me :-[
Quote from: Holly on March 12, 2020, 11:32:42 AM
Seleucid was always sell-oo-kid for me :-[
You're not wrong, but since Seleucid is an English word you might as well pronounce and spell it in Anglicised form (but then SELL-you-sid or Sell-YOU-sid or SELL-oo-sid or Sell-OO-sid or Sell-OO-kid or....)
Quote from: RichT on March 12, 2020, 11:17:08 AM
But is Thusydides - the standard English pronuncation, Thyoo-sid-id-eez - a mispronunciation? If you mean to pronounce it like Ancient Greek it might be better to say Thoo-kud-id-airs (though that is uncertain - the ancient pronunciation of upsilon and eta are, as I understand it, largely guesses).
Both letters (or, rather, the phonemes indicated by them in the Ionic version of the Greek alphabet) changed significantly in pronunciation during Antiquity, but there's no particular doubt concerning their approximate values in the Attic of Thucydides' day.
Anyway, I see no great point in trying to approximate the ancient pronunciation when using Greek names in English; the important thing should be getting understood, and anglicized pronunciations are likely to be at least as good in that respect.
Also, relevant to "the Attic of Thucydides' day",
which ancient pronunciation? Between traditional and availability of evidence, we usually end up with Classical Attic, but it's not entirely obvious that pronouncing, say, Lysander's name the way his Athenian enemies would have is the right way when the man himself probably didn't. He's likely to have presented himself as something an Athenian going for Funetik Aksent (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunetikAksent) might have rendered as "Lousandros".
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Both letters (or, rather, the phonemes indicated by them in the Ionic version of the Greek alphabet) changed significantly in pronunciation during Antiquity, but there's no particular doubt concerning their approximate values in the Attic of Thucydides' day.
And do you know what those values were? I was taught upsilon = u (as in but) and eta = air (as in fair) but I don't know if that was Ionic, Attic, early, late or what.
Quote from: RichT on March 12, 2020, 01:26:33 PM
And do you know what those values were? I was taught upsilon = u (as in but) and eta = air (as in fair) but I don't know if that was Ionic, Attic, early, late or what.
Upsilon as French
u, German
ü or Swedish
y. No close equivalent in standard English, but I'm told some northern dialects have something similar in words like "good".
Epsilon like French
è or German or Swedish
ä. English
air is diphthongal in RP and GA, but if it's a monophthong in your dialect it's likely to be a good match.
(Happily for English tourists, Modern Greek has turned both sounds to "ee" like in fleece.)
Ah thanks - I have in mind, for eta, what Wikipedia tells me is a long monophthong:
Examples of long vowels: ... /eə/ in bear ...
The long mid front vowel [ɛː] is transcribed with the traditional symbol ⟨eə⟩ in this article. The predominant realisation in contemporary RP is monophthongal.
Sounds as if that is right then.
Modern Greek seems to have simplified its vowels but done all sorts of mad stuff to its consonants.
Alas, for me the ea in bear sounds exactly the same as the ai in hair. I obviously can't speak English properly, so therefore I think I'll give up on the classical languages ???
try Welsh! ;D
Quote from: Erpingham on March 12, 2020, 06:08:46 PM
Alas, for me the ea in bear sounds exactly the same as the ai in hair.
Me too - I meant them as two examples of the same thing.
Going back to Boadicea, even if Boudicca is righter than Boadicea, goodness knows how they would have pronounced Bou or dicc or a. Or how stressed it.
Quote from: RichT on March 12, 2020, 06:51:01 PM
even if Boudicca is righter than Boadicea
(ahem) more correct? ;D
QuoteMe too - I meant them as two examples of the same thing.
Oh, good. All this monopthongal and diapthongal is getting me confused.
BTW, Andreas, the u in "tu" and the ü in "über" sounded like the oo in "food" when I was at school. You may strike your palm to head and remark how crap the English are at foreign languages if you wish :)
Given my pronunciation of English, I have no hope at all of getting any other language right :-[