https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65299312
not quite historical...but there is a link to history. Really happy to see this...a much better name
As a one time member of the Urdd no argument from me but have to confess a working lifetime abroad (nearly 50 miles away!) and no fluent speakers in the family anyway means my Welsh, never great is now very basic indeed. :)
so is mine....basic but serviceable
Great change.
Especially when there is an actual earlier name, it's a good thing to use it and doesn't take long to get used to.
It's the 'made up words for things that didn't exist then and now we want to replace the English word with the made up silly new word' changes I object too.
Or the 'let's have a linguistic change even though the people who spoke that language never got there to have a name for it' ones.
But replacing 'made up outcome English' names with original (relatively speaking) names is all to the good.
Don't mention microwaves....
How much is it going to cost, changing all the signage and stationery? I would have though a few houses for local people or something would be a nicer idea? We get this sort of thing in the Lake District and elsewhere in the north. 'Performative activism' in that it makes somebody in an office somewhere feel better but doesn't help the people on the ground :'(
One is reminded of David Lloyd George's story of hiking in what at the time was known as Snowdonia. Due to the descent of low cloud around the mountain he became lost and decided to ask a passing local where he might be.
"Wales!" came the reply.
A perfect politician's answer - short, factually correct and of no use to anyone.
:P
Good to see in my view. There is real history in the old names. Worth spending a relatively small amount of money on.
especially Welsh placenames...they are rich in history and description
QuoteA perfect politician's answer - .
I remember there was a similar joke about some people lost in a helicopter in fog in Seattle (?) . They fly by a tall building and ask someone on the roof where they are. "In a helicopter". "I know where we are" says the pilot "that help was short, factually correct and of no practical use, so this must be the Microsoft building".
Anyway, back to historical names. Our "village" changed it's name in 19th century because the better off citizens didn't like the idea it was named after a pub. I don't think we'll change it back now though :)
I knew a village where the new post office sign incorrectly spelled the name of the village by one letter. The mistake did not impact upon pronounciation in either standard English or the local dialect. The Villagers went nuts until the offending letter was removed.
In doing so they preserved a place name that went back to the early days of the Kingdom of Northumbria.
I am quite pleased that the coming of the railway resulted in the name of the village here being changed from "Dowager's Bottom".
In my part of Ireland a lot of more obviously colonial place names were changed after independence in 1922. Maryborough became Portlaoise, Kingstown became Dun Laoghaire etc. In most cases the new name reflected a pre-conquest toponym but the Cove of Cork (also called Queenstown) was changed to the meaningless but suitably Gaelic-looking Cobh. Which is pronounced "Cove" ::)
Ah, Cobh, where middle daughter was violently sick in the Titanic museum. Holiday memories to cherish :)
Uhrreno....were the people on the ground all that keen about a name change? I mean, how many there actually speak Welsh as a first language and how many would have a clue about who Brychan was? I think there can be too much of a hang up over cultural heritage. Sort of like clapping museum glass cases over everything.
In RSA we've had plenty of name changes, especially of streets, and I never got the impression anyone wanted them. People here (blacks, Indians, whites) tend to use the old names because they have the inestimable advantage of being short. Nobody gives a toss about Dr Pixley Kaseme Street - it's still West Street whenever you give an address or directions. And Smith Street over Anton Lembede Street any day.
Is there such a thing as a short Welsh name?
the thing is, Wales is losing its identity in some areas because of a massive influx of non Welsh people who then declare they have no interest in learning Welsh (fair enough I suppose-ish) or upholding the Welshness of the area. We then slowly lose our unique Welshness and it becomes just another area of 'England'
The gentrification of Wales is underway and what people are trying to do is promote that Welshness and unique identity before its lost forever
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 19, 2023, 04:07:53 PMthe thing is, Wales is losing its identity in some areas because of a massive influx of non Welsh people who then declare they have no interest in learning Welsh (fair enough I suppose-ish) or upholding the Welshness of the area. We then slowly lose our unique Welshness and it becomes just another area of 'England'
The gentrification of Wales is underway and what people are trying to do is promote that Welshness and unique identity before its lost forever
I suspect the Englishing of Wales was largely completed a long time ago and there is little one can do other than go with it. According to this (https://www.gov.wales/welsh-language-wales-census-2021-html) a little over half a million people in Wales can speak Welsh, which represents 17,8% of the population.
I doubt that imposing Welsh names will do much towards giving the Welsh a stronger sense of cultural identity. "Cultural identity" is how people right now live in society and it evolves as it will no matter what anyone tries to do about it. Modern society complicates this by homogenising everyone, imposing a worldview (too many US sitcoms) and way of life that has little to do with the way people lived before. Again, not much you can do about it. Best bet is give the young people a good history of Wales showing
how the Welsh chieftains incessantly fought each other how the Welsh under Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and Llywelyn Ap Gruffudd heroically resisted the English. If they can be proud of their own people that's a considerable accomplishment.
QuoteIf they can be proud of their own people that's a considerable accomplishment.
I think we are drifting off core business here but I've known numerous people who are proud of their origins in Wales but don't have any facility in the language. And Wales isn't all about being beaten by the English - they have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times. Grasp the positives, Dave :)
Quote from: Erpingham on April 19, 2023, 04:51:39 PMthey have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times.
Like turning a hill into a mountain. ;)
One lives with a stoic's heart about such things
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 19, 2023, 05:13:30 PMQuote from: Erpingham on April 19, 2023, 04:51:39 PMthey have many things culturally, technically, socially to be proud of in more recent times.
Like turning a hill into a mountain. ;)
I was thinking more Lloyd George and pensions, Nye Bevan and the NHS, Richard Burton, Anthony Hopkins, Dylan Thomas, Shirley Bassey etc. The Marquess of Bute, once the richest man in the world, they say. See his renovations of Cardiff castle and Castle Coch and thrill to full on Victorian neo-Gothic decor.
(Cunningly attaches a pointer back to medieval history and the controversies of renovating historic building :) )
I'm still impressed by Ffynnon Garw.
I suspect that Justin's personal history is strongly impacting his views here. Decolonisation looks quite different when your the culture being decolonised - especially if it's against your wishes.
But it can equally go a bit stupid in the other direction.
Reverting to original names 'replaced' by colonial outcomers is generally a good thing.
I've loads of those in my history, and one thing they achieve which I'm sure all here approve of is opening up the history before the 'renaming' - try searching for mount Egmont and then the history of mount Taranaki to see what was put into print and taught in schools when that change happened.
I've two superb history books which wouldn't have been printed if that hadn't happened.
But the converse is when the dual language/ renaming becomes a principle without common sense. A clear example from current home - the Glasgow subway (all 15 stations of it) which is now available in either English or Gaelic.
the two are "parallel" rather than an improved single list. Like giving weather forecasts in Celsius and Fahrenheit. No incentive to accept the change.
So Partick has its Gaelic spelling Partaig - why not just get rid of the English misspelling?
while Shields Road (no apostrophe) has Rathad Shields - presumably because no one thought Scots Gaels produced more than one shield.
And Kinning Park has Pairc Kinning.
Clearly the Gael's never had a word for park, so why make up a misspelling?
Edinburgh Cowgate - in 'Gaelic' on all the ScotRail signs: cougait.
Bloody stupid.
Gaelic dictionary confirms the Gaelic words for cow include Bo, Mart, no-bhainne, and others, Gaelic for Gate - there are a bunch of words for those too. So what muppet was allowed to get away with just giving a stupid spelling on public signage?
I'm guessing the salary for this job was high school graduation level.
Great idea ruined by employing think as mince staff.
It's half arsed stuff like that which makes this generally good change become open to ridicule.
Cymru am byth, I say on this
QuoteI suspect that Justin's personal history is strongly impacting his views here. Decolonisation looks quite different when your the culture being decolonised - especially if it's against your wishes.
It's rather that I prefer names to be organic. The locals give a name to a place and that name sticks though it may be gradually transformed over time (Constantinople to Istanbul). Far more preferable to some govt dept arbitrarily assigning names based on the political expediency of the moment. Personally I wouldn't dream of changing Umbogintwini or Amanzimtoti to anything else, though we do have the habit of using abbreviations for longer names. So Amanzimtoti becomes Toti, Johannesburg becomes Joburg, Pietermaritzburg becomes Maritzburg, and so on (not sure what Umbogintwini contracts to).
Well Istanbul is arguable - the Turkic rendering of a romanised common expression, I gather.
But Constantinople is the epitome of a faceless burocrat renaming Byzantium, I think. New boss, new city name.
Quote from: Mark G on April 19, 2023, 08:31:38 PMEdinburgh Cowgate - in 'Gaelic' on all the ScotRail signs: cougait.
Is that not Scots Mark? There was a bit of a push to include Scots when the signage changes were being mooted.
Brycheiniog was an Irish Kingdom ultimately deriving from Maxim Wledig's settlement of the Deisi. In due course it became Brythonic. You might track back to that from Bannau Brycheiniog. I doubt you could from the English name.
Quote from: Mark G on April 19, 2023, 09:35:25 PMBut Constantinople is the epitome of a faceless burocrat renaming Byzantium, I think. New boss, new city name.
Not sure I'd call Constantine a faceless bureaucrat, and he did transform the place from a small Black Sea port into the capital of the Empire. So perhaps we can make an exception in his case.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 19, 2023, 05:48:46 PMI'm still impressed by Ffynnon Garw.
In the film 'The Englishman who Went up a Hill but Came down a Mountain' the hill was likely based on 'the Garth' (Mynydd y Garth) this was site of my first experiences with the police as a youngster. (I wasn't impressed). Just because we were up there in the early hours of a winter night does not mean you have to come up
every time with your full beams on and ruin our night vision and hassle innocent astronomers. (We were tracking meteors - I have regaled members with a fuller story an the convention so won't here.)
Of course, one might think that all this arguing over the correct language to use for street names, etc, can be avoided by simply using numbers instead. However, one needs to have a consistent numbering system and stick with it, rather than restarting from 1 each time you develop a new district. Look at this screenshot (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al+Khobar+Saudi+Arabia/@26.282449,50.1994276,15.5z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x3e49e839e8ef58d9:0xef778812d8b6aad1!8m2!3d26.2171906!4d50.1971381!16zL20vMDMzMDV5) of downtown Khobar in Saudi Arabia to see what happens if you fail to get a grip at an early stage.
Also, in this part of the world, it is not unusual for main roads to be named after various members of the royal family, which can lead to multiple changes and great confusion whenever the monarch dies. In order to survive such chaos, the locals tend to use their own names based upon easily recognised landmarks. Thus Prince Sultan Road is known as Taba (from a shopping centre located partway down the street) and Prince Faisal bin Fahd Road is referred to as Pepsi-Cola Road (due to a prominent advertising billboard).
This phenomenom can also be seen in Wales where Yr Wyddfa (Cairn of the Giant Rhita) is also known by the Old English term for Snow Hill.
8)
Quote from: Nick Harbud on April 20, 2023, 09:27:54 AMOf course, one might think that all this arguing over the correct language to use for street names, etc, can be avoided by simply using numbers instead. However, one needs to have a consistent numbering system and stick with it, rather than restarting from 1 each time you develop a new district. Look at this screenshot (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al+Khobar+Saudi+Arabia/@26.282449,50.1994276,15.5z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x3e49e839e8ef58d9:0xef778812d8b6aad1!8m2!3d26.2171906!4d50.1971381!16zL20vMDMzMDV5) of downtown Khobar in Saudi Arabia to see what happens if you fail to get a grip at an early stage.
Also, in this part of the world, it is not unusual for main roads to be named after various members of the royal family, which can lead to multiple changes and great confusion whenever the monarch dies. In order to survive such chaos, the locals tend to use their own names based upon easily recognised landmarks. Thus Prince Sultan Road is known as Taba (from a shopping centre located partway down the street) and Prince Faisal bin Fahd Road is referred to as Pepsi-Cola Road (due to a prominent advertising billboard).
This phenomenom can also be seen in Wales where Yr Wyddfa (Cairn of the Giant Rhita) is also known by the Old English term for Snow Hill.
8)
Sensible.
Re using numbers for streets there's this (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al+Khobar+Saudi+Arabia/@-29.7518728,30.9715204,17.55z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x3e49e839e8ef58d9:0xef778812d8b6aad1!8m2!3d26.2171906!4d50.1971381!16zL20vMDMzMDV5).
Ah! My happy childhood days on 102819 Street! That razor wire sparkling in the sun! :'( (you can see I'm bored)
(https://i.imgur.com/c0enC6P.jpg)
"Cougait" must be Scots. With the "gait" bit meaning street like it does in northern English dialect? And surely, Edinburgh was a Scots speaking area, not a Gaelic one?
Justin will be no doubt pleased that Yorkshire folk also tend to shorten long town names, so Tod (Todmorden), Brid (Bridlington), Donny (Doncaster), Scunny (Scunthorpe, just across the border).
I'm trying to think of another link back to military history - anyone else got one ?
for my backyard plenty of interesting place names
Pont y Saeson (Saxons Bridge - potential site for Battle of Tintern)
Maes Arthur (Arthur's Field - potential site for Battle including Osla Big Knife)
Magor - 'ruined' walls
Portskewett - Shielded harbour
Caerwent - fortified enclosure of Venta
etc etc
Gait would be Gate, pronounced on the Borders and further south as G'yett. I've seen that written as Yett too but have only heard it as G'yett. As in Ah cud lowp a 5 bar g'yett meaning I could jump over a 5 bar gate.
I'm currently of the view that Edinburgh probably transitioned towards English with the influx of English refugees in Queen Margaret's time. The last King of Scots to be fluent in Gaelic fell at Flodden. If the King spoke it others did too.
The development of Scots is interesting there seems to be a lot of Scandinavian words likewise in Northumbria.
Everyone says Danes but the pronounciation and some of the words strike me as more like Swedish.
QuoteGait would be Gate, pronounced on the Borders and further south as G'yett. I've seen that written as Yett too but have only heard it as G'yett. As in Ah cud lowp a 5 bar g'yett meaning I could jump over a 5 bar gate.
Possible. It could also refer to the gate in the wall they took cows through. Without knowing the location, its speculation. But I still think gate from Norse
gata = street is likely.
I was hoping, Dave, you might consider why what used to be known as the Battle of Pilleth is now called the battle of Bryn Glas. Both names are Welsh in origin.
Actually, I think this is one of those where it's about naming conventions - do you name a battle after the local village or the place it was actually fought (in this case, a hill called Bryn Glas)?
It is certainly where the cows came in. In Edinburgh it is low lying in Leith. Gate could function as both gate and street maybe.
Quote from: Anton on April 20, 2023, 11:09:48 AMEveryone says Danes but the pronounciation and some of the words strike me as more like Swedish.
Swedish being more phonologically conservative than Danish, modern Swedish probably sounds more like Viking Age Danish than what modern Danish does.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 20, 2023, 11:40:24 AMI was hoping, Dave, you might consider why what used to be known as the Battle of Pilleth is now called the battle of Bryn Glas. Both names are Welsh in origin.
Actually, I think this is one of those where it's about naming conventions - do you name a battle after the local village or the place it was actually fought (in this case, a hill called Bryn Glas)?
Bryn glas is blue/green hill.
Pilleth is a corruption of pwll lleth or overwhelming pool or pit
The second sounds much more drammatic
It makes much more sense as a Scot's word, I'll stand corrected on that happily
You're in Wales!
:P :P :P
While this topic has meandered a bit, it has been enlightening.
Out in the New World and specifically the Pacific Northwest of the USA, the move to revert to pre-conquest (well, 19th century for the Pacific Northwest) naming conventions especially when names were considered derogatory is alive and well.
As one local example, my fair city, Spokane, Washington has a minor league baseball club. The old club logo was,
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhbrJspUuFmj3uwj155aG-q2Y0VQRat6OBOf1-o2cXIWj7dCsY3JcyhKdC2SR8sMqlSFxAx9GkP1rTSXYD4ve2C8mo8sFweO4CpN_McoFhBdexXnKeRoNzVNQaD9AXCJz_KHPsO9UptMTafM8YPAgiToLmxxTl56Cjg3i1Zoc2YdiOfn5MALZ6cIBerKw/s1600/OIP%20(1).jpg).
The word, "Indian" was deemed offensive so the team name and logo were changed into the local Salish language. The city name is now rendered in native Salish as,
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivuP3UsUfKH2TvrSl7PYZZb6Y9My8esc6NuTCZhbB7OGU3pKak3DH9QJRgW7oRsXHwhCb0o0w-WDJUNL4a0vh_D7o3IxYgrJVOjOSnlmQVX8m_dqd6yFwmNb9pujVFSNvgQlpnWUsE2ZdnWy7ByLa3ZJuCSAOucyDpACPDsfOqOi9ObF6Lk7Orx6YUJw/s320/SpokaneIndiansSalishJerseys.jpg)
with the new team logo showing,
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAYpDhy20pgr-MQvJDLKsIwyl9srWsljtW5nK-9CasbDc8JzIH96gLEd0_cuEMwvLexZdGGd3scEu7WN5kSG0H8vKPtrXBY5kA6HEqsMPC4vanc23NhXLc0kRKfKJo9InFoZReuFutkBAAamQBwP1V7EmW4N347YnQUoilnK72TUvByHb9VwSy4TMdEA/s1600/OIP.jpg).
I expected the renaming (rebranding) to include the names the peoples called themselves because the names are very descriptive. How does this new logo translate from Salish to English?
Spokane Indians Baseball Club...
Well, at least someone tried.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 20, 2023, 11:05:06 AMfor my backyard plenty of interesting place names
Pont y Saeson (Saxons Bridge - potential site for Battle of Tintern)
Maes Arthur (Arthur's Field - potential site for Battle including Osla Big Knife)
Magor - 'ruined' walls
Portskewett - Shielded harbour
Caerwent - fortified enclosure of Venta
etc etc
Surely if you were decolonising the language Caerwent would become Venta Silurum? ;)
The problem with Welsh is which Welsh, Kitchen Welsh or High Welsh?
A friend of my late mother was from a Church of Wales family, her great Uncle (or Uncle, I'm going from memory now) was a leading churchman who translated the Bible into Welsh. But he did it from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, rather than just from the King James.
His comment about Welsh was the problem was that Kitchen Welsh differed from valley to valley, so that what was an affectionate nickname in one valley could be a killing insult ten miles away.
And in his words, High Welsh was a superb language in which to plan a cattle raid or boast about it afterwards.
It could be that his work was one of the things which helped create a 'modern' 'unified' Welsh. Which isn't unusual, it is often held that Martin Luther, with his writing, helped unify the German language. And the King James Bible has had a powerful effect on unifying English. In fact I've talked to Nigerians who have less trouble with the King James than I have because they, to a considerable extent, learned their English through it
very true re different forms - old welsh and high medieval welsh are different and both different again to Brittonic proto Welsh.
re Venta Silurum - thats a Latin name if we are to be picky it should be Llanmelin but even that doesnt work really.... ;D
Quote from: Jim Webster on April 20, 2023, 03:24:51 PMSurely if you were decolonising the language Caerwent would become Venta Silurum? ;)
Wouldn't that be
recolonising? Latin isn't exactly indigenous.
(though indigenous is inexactly Latin...)
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 20, 2023, 04:42:55 PMQuote from: Jim Webster on April 20, 2023, 03:24:51 PMSurely if you were decolonising the language Caerwent would become Venta Silurum? ;)
Wouldn't that be recolonising? Latin isn't exactly indigenous.
(though indigenous is inexactly Latin...)
Even Latin had to be indigenous somewhere 8)
I doff mine cap to my betters.....I am but a poor pagensis
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 20, 2023, 11:59:11 AMQuote from: Anton on April 20, 2023, 11:09:48 AMEveryone says Danes but the pronounciation and some of the words strike me as more like Swedish.
Swedish being more phonologically conservative than Danish, modern Swedish probably sounds more like Viking Age Danish than what modern Danish does.
Now that is interesting Andreas. Thank you. I had been puzzling over it.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 20, 2023, 11:05:06 AMCaerwent - fortified enclosure of Venta
Welsh for Winchester?
???
ha ha.....don't resurrect that one! Someone put that as a central theme of their book about Arthur's capital..... :o
Andreas, from my viewing of many crime thrillers on tv, it sounds to me like modern Danish is quite close to the noise cows make when farting.
Is that unfair?
more like Freis ;)
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 19, 2023, 09:25:52 AMespecially Welsh placenames...they are rich in history and description
But only if you speak Welsh, otherwise they're just meaningless sounds.
If you want to actually preserve the history, then by all means call it "Bannau Brycheiniog" in Welsh, but call it something meaningful in English like "Brychan's Highlands". Though for marketing reasons "Brychan's Beacons" might work better.
I've had my fill of people inventing new terminology just so they can look down on others for getting it wrong!
true and I am guilty of taking pleasure in reading the Welsh placenames in my head as they 'translate' into meaning rather than a name ie they are descriptive and meaningful
That's really the whole point Dave. The original names tell you something about the place and it's people and its history.
I'd rather hope that English monoglots confronted with a Welsh placename might ask the obvious question. What does that mean?
Signage can easily accommodate translation.
100%
gives depth and texture to a placename and hence the place
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 20, 2023, 07:03:45 PMI doff mine cap to my betters.....I am but a poor pagensis
Not bad Mediaeval Latin for a pagensis, even a pagensis cambricus.
;D
Quote from: Anton on April 21, 2023, 08:44:18 PMThat's really the whole point Dave. The original names tell you something about the place and it's people and its history.
But in this case not as much as the modern name. Because the modern Welsh are overwhelmingly English speakers, so an Anglicised version of an old Welsh name tells you far more about the history of the people who live there.
Pretending that the last 500 years of history didn't happen isn't very respectful to the Welsh.
Quote from: Anton on April 21, 2023, 08:44:18 PMI'd rather hope that English monoglots confronted with a Welsh placename might ask the obvious question. What does that mean?
Well that would be one way of getting the name changed back to "Brecon Beacons" pretty quickly! Imagine if every English speaking visitor grabbed a Welsh speaker to ask them what the Welsh name meant - I'm sure they'd get very bored of that very quickly.
There is simply no need to Anglicise names. A translation can be offered.
If we want to be respectful of Welsh history and people we might begin by wondering just how the English language came to Wales. By what proccess did it come to predominate over the native language? Such questions have contemporary political implications. That I understand is uncomfortable for some. History often is.
Would Welsh speakers get bored? In my experence people are mostly pleased when foriegners express an interest in their culture.
100%
always good to discuss local history and the like
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 22, 2023, 05:12:57 PM100%
always good to discuss local history and the like
Bravo at trying to steer us toward the history, rather than the politics Dave :) However, the history is complicated - many English speakers are Welsh going back many generations, many places are known by their inhabitants by anglicised names and changing them needs to be approached with caution and respect for the locals.
Is there a military history dimension still left in this? Sorry to ask, but it is my job as moderator.
I grew up 500 yards from 'Harold's Lodge' in Portskewett... does that count?
Quote from: Imperial Dave on April 22, 2023, 05:37:04 PMI grew up 500 yards from 'Harold's Lodge' in Portskewett... does that count?
For those, like me, wondering what this means, I found the wiki page useful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portskewett). The military bit seems tenuous to me but being one of the three chief ports of Wales was impressive - I love a triad :) Another great port that silted up.
ah but the lodge was sacked by Caradog ap Gruffydd during 1065 during uncertainty in the 1060s after Harold killed Gruffyd ap Llylewyn in 1063. It is oft said (without basis) that had there been no bad blood between Harold and Caradog there may have been Welshmen at the Battle of Hastings.....
Quote from: Erpingham on April 22, 2023, 05:33:37 PMIs there a military history dimension still left in this? Sorry to ask, but it is my job as moderator.
Fair question. I don't think there is ti what I'm saying, so I'll happily shut up!
OK, ok, I couldn't resist....
Contributions to maintaining Welsh culture evaluated:
Changing the name of the Brecon Beacons: 1 point.
Boxes of fudge with pictures of women wearing red shawls and black hats: minus two points.
Blowing the roof off the Principality Stadium with a rendition of probably the best national anthem in the world: 5000 points
Quote from: Cantabrigian on April 23, 2023, 10:21:17 AMOK, ok, I couldn't resist....
Contributions to maintaining Welsh culture evaluated:
Changing the name of the Brecon Beacons: 1 point.
Boxes of fudge with pictures of women wearing red shawls and black hats: minus two points.
Blowing the roof off the Principality Stadium with a rendition of probably the best national anthem in the world: 5000 points
Not to mention the best flag