Having been out of the wargaming loop for quite a while, with the last rules I used being DBM 3, I have lost touch with what rule sets are commonly used now. I never tried Field of Glory - I think that's what folks in Melbourne moved to en masse, when it came out. I've been looking at DBMM and quite like some of the changes from DBM.
Any thoughts on what's going on now? There seem to be a lot more options than back then.
While I am no competitive gamer and Ancients are not my forte, I found Field of Glory a real slog to play. FoG seemed more like hard work than enjoyable fun.
I am likely in the minority of the seasoned readership here but my favorites are Command & Colors using miniatures and Basic Impetvs. I know. I know...
In the UK the main Ancient rule sets played in competition are Art de la Guerre and Mortem et Gloriam. Both using base sizes that match DBX rules. Field of Glory and DBMM are still played. SAGA, more a skirmish level game, is also widely played.
Non-competition rule sets include Lion Rampant, Hail Caesar and Strength and Honour.
I know there is a group of Mortem et Gloriam players in Australia, and competitions were held at CanCon, RaiderCon and MoAB.
There is no shortage of rulesets.
Hope that helps.
I play DBA and L'Art de la Guerre. Both sets feature on the Australian competition circuit and, while it probably isn't decisive, I know one DBA player who lives in Melbourne.
There's a rules agnostic review of the UK competition scene by Tim Porter dated 19 Dec 2022 - https://madaxemandotcom.blogspot.com/2022/12/who-played-what-2022-year-end-edition.html
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_OGHF8uAh0cc34eEx6gW0ij4upzVcX32VSjt0cp2HvJ-aZ1jrYBAmAx7zRah_Gkqr5XNFbB2n4RU06viBJ5Egad9qk8ciiSZYJIQNcKo-ZlvC_RQJMix9eOO99LAY0mePoFvq5JcEh_lDGrmbuDQG_HPDHzkydMgbK7oOPwS_8Y2lrHD-wtk6mKCE/w400-h243/Stats1.jpg)
Tim's analysis tends to be year on year. I have used the UK Northern League to produce longer term trends:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiE_O2PPqHbyeR2G1md8uUvMCfH913eL2k2FXpbAl9F0PPvdJ9w8VCKgOwJa64GpYynNMPUqRU2o-gQfezvfMKOCb-uFeWzBHtkujyTYs23PIyLJTS6LoovfAyRxEcG6U-QvlCCCdnLpT_TZDz0NlrFTcmiGOFYhWi7kC5mnsYVD0ELVStC8-KXC-ctEw/s609/20230303%20-%20Northern%20League%20%28UK%29%202006-22.png)
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2023/03/northern-league-2022-review.html
Obviously a UK specific view but worth ten minutes of your time.
Thanks all. The pie chart and graph are particularly interesting. Seems like the big ancients club in Melbourne reflects the 2022 bar as well. I had not heard of L'Art de la Guerre until today, but will have a look, it sounds like it might be ok.
Wasn't there a survey of members a little while back and the results were posted in Slingshot?
I'm away at the moment so can't check.
I think it might be noted that our graph making data is drawn from the competition circuit and, obviously, tends to feature sets most suitable for competitions. So, if that isn't your primary interest, a wider range of rules can be found in use. Richard has mentioned a number of these which are worth a look. Command & Colours, mentioned by Jon, has a lot of interest in its various forms too. Neil Thomas' One Hour Wargames (OHW) has a following, though admittedly mainly not in ancients. OHW, however, is quite popular for its scenario selection given in the rules, which I've seen frequently borrowed for use in other rule sets - it is worth picking up a cheap copy if scenario-based games appeal. But one thing is for sure, you have a huge range of options to find something that fits your style.
Quote from: Persia on September 07, 2023, 09:38:51 AMThanks all. The pie chart and graph are particularly interesting. Seems like the big ancients club in Melbourne reflects the 2022 bar as well. I had not heard of L'Art de la Guerre until today, but will have a look, it sounds like it might be ok.
There are some resources here - https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/p/art-de-la-guerre-v4-adlg-resources.html
It has a link to Julian Lopez's beginners guide (pdf).
I am minded to add medieval warfare by Terry Gore
Very well written
Quote from: Imperial Dave on September 07, 2023, 02:29:40 PMI am minded to add medieval warfare by Terry Gore
Very well written
But widely used ?
We might mention Triumph, which Chris Hahn regularly uses and I believe Andreas has also some experience with. As a DBx derivative, they might interest someone with a DBM background.
Add : I note the rules are popular at Durban Wargames Club, where one Justin Swanton participates in the local league. So definitely a well-travelled set.
I'm still playing DBMM pretty much exclusively. For a lot of people, game choice depends on getting opponents locally, and I am fortunate in that there is a group of fairly regular DBMM players at Reading. AdlG, WRG 6th(!), and some other ancients sets are also played.
Duncan, from your "Games Played" counts, you seem to maintain a very busy DBMM gaming schedule.
Quote from: Jon Freitag on September 07, 2023, 03:16:38 PMDuncan, from your "Games Played" counts, you seem to maintain a very busy DBMM gaming schedule.
I'm certainly getting in more games than before I retired!
I suspect not many play MW but it ticks a few boxes with regards to mechanisms and the like. It's one I havestumbled on recently and it's like wrg 6th 7th and warhammer rolled into one but with the naff bits dropped
Big battles - TACTICA 2
Skirmishing - Lion Rampant
Latest game was Caesarian Romans v British
Quote from: dwkay57 on September 07, 2023, 10:19:03 AMWasn't there a survey of members a little while back and the results were posted in Slingshot?
I'm away at the moment so can't check.
Slingshot 345, pages 27-28. DBA and Art de la Guerre seem to be the most popular among SoA members at present.
Oh mighty "Persia" such diplomatic storms you bring....
I am pretty "common" and like quite uncommon rules like DBA3, Armati2, DBMM, various Portable Wargame variants (for fast play grid games).... and Never mind the Billhooks is fun (War of the Roses period) ruleset. And much before that so has Dux Bellorum been fun, and I have played variants of that 'Arthurian'/Dark Age rule set that stepped back in time to the armies of the mighty Darius of Persia, and those up-start Greeks and Barbarian cousins from Macedonia (all said with tongue in cheek just in case our Greek and Macedonian members are consulting their lawyers...)
I hold the opinion that the "competition circuit" may speak loudest but not necessarily hold long to anyone rule set for ancients (or medievals) and much fashion has come and gone since DBM3 held sway...
The key is twofold: find something you enjoy playing and that at least one other person enjoys too!! (Or take up solo wargaming ... if so I suggest you look up 'Lone Warrior' magazine where lots of solo ideas get aired and many related to our 'period' for example El Cid campaign game recently!
CarlL
The issue is two fold:
[1] Who plays what within easy reach?
[2] Do you like what, and how, they play?
The competition circuit is a good way of answering the first question as are demonstration games at shows put on by clubs.
As Carl suggests, competition popularity does not always translate to quality. It does however indicate the presence of a "lowest common denominator" of acceptability.
It may also allow you to avoid the "tweakers". I define the latter as those who use house rules to fit with their (fixed?) ideas of what rules should be like. Of course this may be ideal if their ideas match yours.
Quote from: CarlL on September 07, 2023, 09:38:24 PMI hold the opinion that the "competition circuit" may speak loudest but not necessarily hold long to anyone rule set for ancients (or medievals) and much fashion has come and gone since DBM3 held sway...
In the Northern League there's been 3 rules sets (DBMM, FOG & ADLG) since the demise of DBM in 2007. Not bad in 16 years. Hardly flavour of the month.
Tim Porters piece mentions DBA, MEG & TTS nationally . Only the last two are recent additions. DBA pre-dates DBM; both of which are still active.
Thanks all. I had a read of DBMM today and quite like the stratagems and so on. Coincidentally, I have 5 of the armies with brilliant generals! :D ADLG is on order, so I'll see what they are like, too. I might report back on some test games with the two rulesets.
Duncan, your mention of 6th edition still being in use made me nostalgic for the days when my Galloglas rolled up 3s and 4s and vapourised triple-armed Late Romans! ;D
I think that Martin makes a good point. If you want the "club" experience, being aware of popular games on the competition circuit is a good way to be aware of the trends. Again, as he says, many sets can be in local clusters (e.g. you may fancy ADLG but if everyone locally is invested in MeG, you may want to go with the flow). It is probably an interesting study to see how a local group migrates from one dominant set to another - the external factors, the group dynamics etc. but doesn't really help in the situation of trying to get a game locally in the near future.
Unlike Carl, I'm not sure there is a diplomatic storm in this. The Society is a broad church in terms of rules preference and gaming styles. Competition gaming is quite a lively part of that but it by no means the only one. We have clusters of social gamers with their own gaming passions, we have the rules collectors and tinkers, the solo players and many more.
Incidentally, we do have people well invested in on-line table top gaming. If you can't find something local you like, it may be possible to hook up to a game elsewhere in the world - though, obviously, one plays the host's prefered rules. I know Jon Freitag often hosts folks from across the globe in his online games.
Quote from: Erpingham on September 08, 2023, 10:33:52 AMI know Jon Freitag often hosts folks from across the globe in his online games.
Aye, that I do! These remote games have given many a chance to game where they otherwise had no opportunity for a variety of reasons.
Quote from: Erpingham on September 08, 2023, 10:33:52 AMIncidentally, we do have people well invested in on-line table top gaming. If you can't find something local you like, it may be possible to hook up to a game elsewhere in the world - though, obviously, one plays the host's prefered rules. I know Jon Freitag often hosts folks from across the globe in his online games.
I do, indeed!
The likes of DBM (and subsequent variants) alienated me from Ancients wargaming for several years. I was brought up with figures and unit-based rules systems like the old WRG5th, 6th. These had faults but I enjoyed preparing and fielding 'units' of troop with officers and musicians and of differing sizes and assembling armies composed of these..
However, many modern rulesets employ stand/element-based game mechanics which PERSONALLY, I find rather soulless; no matter how 'accurate a simulation' they are considered to provide.
Consequently, I don't play any rules other than Tactica 2 these days for big battles and Lion Rampant for skirmish games.
I really depends what kind of games you fancy. If you are into big battle simulation and complexity, then DBM(M,X. etc), Art de La Guerre and the like may be good for you. These also enable you to fight 'out of period; and in competitions. Something I don't do any more.
If however, you wish to field armies composed of units of figures imbued (notionally) with specific character (in your own mind) then you may prefer rules systems like Tactica 2.
Then there are the 'square-bashing' rules systems like To the Strongest which have attractions as well.
I have been gaming for 50 years and my toy soldier collection has grown over that time so that I can field reasonably large armies of 25/8mm scale in historically matched pairs (the intent behind Tactica 2). I am lucky to have friends who will play such games with me on a regular basis provided I supply both armies, usually but not always..
Finding opponents is also a prime requisite.
So you pays your money and makes your choice.
I attach a few random photos of some of my Tactica 2 games.
Good luck and happy gaming!
Cheers
Simon
Just a DBBM question. I've been reading the rules and army lists and it doesn't look like the DBM restrictions on troop types and numbers for allies are there anymore. is this correct?
Look at the introductory page to each army list volume, under the heading ALLIES.
Play ADLG for larger battles but a home-brew version of Lion/Dragon Rampant for smaller actions.
Recently developed a hankering for early DBA and HotT and for some reason DBM 3.1 but yet to plunge into the latter
I am definitely liking On Bloody Ground but am doing a few rounds with Three Ages of Rome for comparison
I prefer rules that use 'units' of varying sizes, qualities and character. that's because that's the way I was brought up; WRG 4th. 5tgh, 6th. I now play Tactica 2. The standardised 'element-based- rulesets leave me cold. They may provide a good 'simulation' but personally, I like more 'character' to my games.1st Corps Thureophoroi.jpegNaismith Hypaspists.jpegSeleucid Companions.jpeg
Wrg 6th is still my favourite if flawed ruleset
Good rules; certainly for for their day and up to a certain size but not really for big battles. Tactica 2 armies might easily have 20 units on each side. WRG6th could cope with up to a dozen but even then it could be very slow. Fewer than 10 was preferable.
Which is why I am tinkering with OBG currently. Reminds me of 6th but very simple and uses units
I just received the ADLG rules yesterday and browsed through them just now. They look really good. I like that they have javelin shooting and units.
I got the DBMM rules and lists the other week and quite like them too, so will have to try both with various armies and see what I think.
Worthwhile comparing and contrasting several sets to see what works best for you personally
"Persia"
given you note "I like that they have javelin shooting and units."
then I suggest using Armati2 or Tactica, as these rules include this and other fun features, while giving you a game you can finish in a few hours without the tables and factors headache of likes of ADLG which from my limited experience (and IMHO) can fail to give a game outcome in an evening...
CarlL
Ancients-wise, our club play a heavily modified (by myself) version of DBA 3 for ancients and medieval. But then we're only a small club of friends. :)
Shock of Impact
Quote from: Orc65 on September 27, 2023, 12:43:51 AMShock of Impact
A blast from the past. I'd thought they were long extinct.
Still got mine :)
Quote from: Imperial Dave on September 27, 2023, 10:56:11 AMStill got mine :)
I expect no less from a dedicated rule collector :) But when did you last play them?
Ah...erm.....Michael Foot was erm....er
Quote from: Imperial Dave on September 27, 2023, 11:03:12 AMAh...erm.....Michael Foot was erm....er
For overseas members and those under 50, Michael Foot was Labour Party leader at the beginning of the 1980s :)
Quote from: Erpingham on September 27, 2023, 11:13:44 AMFor overseas members and those under 50, Michael Foot was Labour Party leader at the beginning of the 1980s :)
Thanks, Anthony. Since many of the fellas I game with remotely are UK based, cultural references have to be explained to me regularly. Otherwise, the jokes, puns, and slams go right over my head.
For our American cousins....
Ah....erm....Walter Mondale was...erm
Quote from: Erpingham on September 27, 2023, 10:29:18 AMQuote from: Orc65 on September 27, 2023, 12:43:51 AMShock of Impact
A blast from the past. I'd thought they were long extinct.
I bought a copy years ago and they've just been sitting on my shelf. I thought it's about time I used them.
are you trying to game shame me? ;D
no, not really, but....... :D
Feels like a bucket list moment. ::)
Not using as such but delving into Blood of Ancients ruleset for review purposes
Quote from: CarlL on September 23, 2023, 07:31:07 PM"Persia"
given you note "I like that they have javelin shooting and units."
then I suggest using Armati2 or Tactica, as these rules include this and other fun features, while giving you a game you can finish in a few hours without the tables and factors headache of likes of ADLG which from my limited experience (and IMHO) can fail to give a game outcome in an evening...
CarlL
I have a copy of Armati, but haven't really delved into it so far.
Persia,
if / when you delve into Armati there is lots of material around even the old articles in Slingshot would help even though they were written for 1st edition the many core ideas (like forming battles / divisions, shooting, melee, evading and movement) remain same in 2nd edition; as does the idea of playing with units which have a hit life value, (eg 4 for HI, and each lost shooting event or melee phase removes a hit till unit is destroyed) and forming units into either singe or multi unit 'divisions' (groups).
Enjoy your rules perusals. Hopefully you are getting to play some games too.
CarlL
its half the fun
Statistically proven?
Having fun? So I am told
Armati is a lame duck in Melbourne - I've never seen it used here.
ADLG is the predominant gaming set for pick-up games from what I've seen.