OK, it's a random question that came to mind after reading historical texts around the Spartacus (and two earlier Sicily) revolt(s) and this describing slave revolts fortifying likes of rocky outcrop as base and Spartacus surprising Romans in night attack on their camp. But what do we know of real camps in antiquity, say pre 1066? Camps rather than fortifications, although on likes of Hadrian's Wall it could be argued that early camps became wooden fortifications that became stone fortifications in places on the Wall?
Camps I suppose became popular on tabletops with the popularity of DBA rules and games. And it's a feature in more modern rules like "To The Strongest". Probably in others where my knowledge is limited?
But I have to say I have virtually no knowledge base (from history or archaeology) bar those descriptions of Roman "playing card" forts in Britain that have been popularised by writers, TV, and popular magazines.
I don't recall articles in Slingshot but over many years of being a member many have probably slipped from memory?
Do other members have a 'tighter grip' on the facts? Probably! Definitely!
Go on spill the beans!
For example do we know if Romans actually erected any gate (let alone gateway) when setting up an overnight (or short term) camp in hostile country?
CarlL
See this page which quotes Polybious on Greek & Roman stakes - https://baueda.com/fog6.html
There are a lot of archaeological traces of Roman camps - even apart from the siege-camps at Numantia and Alesia, which are obviously less temporary, the sites of marching camps are used to map Agricola's campaigns in Scotland, for instance.
Polybios's account of Republican Roman camps is at https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/6*.html
Hyginus's account of Imperial Roman camps is at https://www.roman-britain.co.uk/classical-references/de-munitionibus-castrorum-pseudo-hyginus/
The Egyptian camp at Kadesh is shown on the reliefs, and there are some rough representations of Assyrian camps on their reliefs. Lagos' Who Really Won the Battle of Marathon? (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Really-Won-Battle-Marathon/dp/1526758067) reckons to have identified the site of the Greek camp - a rough low stone wall, IIRC.
There are depictions of the Egyptian 'marching' camp at Kadesh which was attacked by the Hittites. This is strong evidence of the principle that 'the ancients' were well aware of the need to construct temporary defences when on campaign (no matter how flimsy) and presumably an organised distribution of the various contingents in the army within the defined camp area, long before the Romans. Never underestimate the sophistication of 'the ancients'. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence no matter how often the politicians say so or imply.
Sorry for the duplication Duncan. I have been fortunate enough to see the Kadesh paintings at Abu Simbel in person; one of my lifetime ambitions.
Lucky you!
Thank you ALL, you are STARS!
But plenty of scope for more? I mean what do we know of Hellenistic camps?
I know Caesar gives description of the works (and counter works) at Alesia (52BCE)? [And there are some interesting re-constructions in France which are well photographed see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia ]
And what of Sun Tzu and his "The Art of War"? It's that long since I read my (abridged) SoA copy I can't recall what he says!!
CarlL
Thanks Martin / Vexillia,
as you say Baueda make great use of "Polybius, in Book XVIII Campaign of Flamininus in Thessaly and Battle of Cynoscephalae" to describe the difference between Roman and Hellenistic camp stakes!! Which seems different from the later Roman shaped stake carried by Marius mules (onwards) ... or did I get this wrong? I shall read on in Duncan's links to find out....
CarlL
Duncan's link to Polybius (on line) gives us detailed instructions of how interior of the camp is laid out [from section 26 onwards - page 327 as numbered in right hand margin] but little detail of the camps defences, so in section 41 - page 365 onwards it describes the camp as having "entrenchment and stockading" but not how these are constructed.
Later when describing how troops are dismissed within camp it talks of "the gate" but as there is n Greek / Latin text one cannot immediately tell how this word was arrived at, could it be literally a gate, or a gateway or simply an entrance way? Quite intriguing.
CarlL
pseudo-hyginus is interesting.
section / para 48 identifies five aspects of summer camps: "ditch, rampart, stakes, stockade and weapons"
s. / para 49 identifies a V shape and a Punic shape ditch!!
s. / para 50, is worth quoting in full: "50. In less secure places a rampart of turf, stone, rocks or rubble should be thrown up. Eight feet wide and six feet wide will suffice, and a little parapet. There should also be a rampart before the gates along the titulum as along the ditches; because of the construction it is known as "sanctum"."
s. / para 51 deals with stakes (and is quoted below) and s/ para 52 with what to do if no material for stakes or no secure footing for them exists. s. /ara 51 =
" 51. The stakes are trunks with their branches. They are resorted to if the nature of the soil is too friable causing the turfs to break, if a thick enough rampart cannot be built because of the looseness of the stones, or if a ditch cannot be dug without the sides collapsing."
s. / para 58 highlights use of artillery on ramparts in hostile terrain.
These suggestions come from an unknown engineer hence pseudo, as previously accredited to Hyginus, and believed to have been written: "Pseudo-Hyginus wrote sometime in the last half of the second century, between the reigns of Trajan and Septimius Severus." so our Imperial Roman Army not that of the Republic of Rome.
CarlL
Quote from: CarlL on February 17, 2024, 08:28:53 PMThank you ALL, you are STARS!
But plenty of scope for more? I mean what do we know of Hellenistic camps?
CarlL
Diodorus https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/20E*.html#108 talks of the camp which Lysimachus prepared. It was built in a strong position to avoid facing Antigonos in battle rather than in preparation for battle. It developed into quite a fortification - with deep ditch and triple stockade - which Antigonos besieged.
Much later, Mithridates VI's armies seem to have been so accustomed to building a fortified camp that Archelaus is noted as having built one even though he didn't expect to fight an engagement. This meant that even though the camp was built, it was in a poor position. https://www.livius.org/sources/content/appian/appian-the-mithridatic-wars/appian-the-mithridatic-wars-9/ Appian mentions gates being opened though whether this is strictly accurate or his own addition is another matter. Fimbria's attack at night on another occasion may have been against a camp since a later Roman night attack certainly was.
Apart from the written sources are there any archaeological findings that might help? Many Roman marching camps have been identified and excavated but my knowledge does not extend to the Greek world. Does anyone know of any accessible reports?
Finding a site of a Greek marching camp seems the first problem.
Only after that could you find out if there is enough left to make any interpretation.
For the battles covered in Phil Sabin's Lost Battles, armies either have a fortified, unfortified or no camp (sometimes as it was too far to the rear to appear on the battlefield).
Here is some evidence from really early antiquity, but I guess a defended settlement is not the sort of camp that this thread was first thinking of?
https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/archaeology/oldest-fortress-siberia/#:~:text=Amnya%20is%20the%20northern%2Dmost,2%2C500%20km%20northeast%20of%20Moscow.
Thanks for posting Keraunos.
It looks like a permanent site, with its access to fishing in river and seasonal migration of wild animals to hunt. It could be a fortified BUA on table? Or even an edifice, perhaps modelling a gateway or a nearby sacred site (sacred grove? or burial mound?).
I was thinking of evidence for armies erecting camps during their invasion / raiding a neighbour or when on campaign and a defensive structure when in same area for overnight or over days and weeks.
It shows that early man could build defensive structures in wood, which presumably was plentiful in Siberia then as it can be in non tundra Siberia today?
CarlL
The Royal Archaeologcal Institute has an online lecture about Roman camps which may be of interest:
Roman Camps in Britain: Known Unknowns - Dr Rebecca Jones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ARMA9HoZk
This mostly covers camps in Scotland and Wales, including campaigning, training and construction camps. The training camps will be of interest to Dave as they were mostly in Wales and designed to get new Roman squaddies up to speed with how to build marching camps.
Do William's prefab castles count?
http://www.normaninvasion.info/william-builds-pre-built-castle-pevensey.htm
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2024, 02:06:34 PMDo William's prefab castles count?
Odd you should mention this, as I had the same thought yesterday. I decided not to raise it because they are post-antiquity. However, now you have, one point that occurred to me that prefab castles are fine if you came by boat. You couldn't really haul one about in a pack train very easily. The even bigger prefabricated castle intended for the French invasion of England in 1386 needed 71 ships to transport.
Fair point!
But some ancient armies did haul things about on boats. Siege machines seem to be broken down and reassembled on site by some armies. So I think it might be worth having a check to see if anybody does mention an ancient army having their camp brought in by boat
Worth remembering the Roman assault on Hanno's fortified camp outside Beneventum (Livy 25.13-14) which was sited at the top of a steep hill and had earthworks, the combination of which nearly defeated the Roman attack until the Paeligni did their favoured "tossing the standard into the enemy ranks" stunt. Now, it may be that Hanno's camp was intended to serve for more than a couple of days, since he was trying to gather in supplies from Italian allies for redistribution to the Capuans, but that may mean simply a difference in degree of works, rather than the principle of a fortified camp.
Oh, and the Roman attack followed a night approach march, with the assault seemingly happening just after first light.