Beer and salt among Roman 'mega-industries' (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9zz5pje04o)
A fine demonstration by Oxford Archaeology on how to exploit media silly season. Some of it seems perfectly reasonable, especially the salt, though I do wonder whether there is any evidence, as opposed to supposition, regarding the ovens being used for malting.
Well if they weren't being used for pizzas, then malting sounds more likely than "drying grain' which they give as the alternative.
I believe the idea is they needed to dry the grain for storage. Jim, I'm sure, can explain the technicalities based on modern practice. As to beer drinking, I think I recall the Celts were beer drinkers so why not the Romano-British?
Quote from: Cantabrigian on August 11, 2024, 09:49:45 AMWell if they weren't being used for pizzas, then malting sounds more likely than "drying grain' which they give as the alternative.
I'm not sure, a lot of grain was dried or even 'parched' in damp climates to make it easier to mill.
I found this document https://historicengland.org.uk/research/results/reports/6573/ECONOMICACTIVITIESATROCESTERSTAFFORDSHIREINTHEROMANSAXONANDMEDIEVALPERIODS%3BTHEEVIDENCEFROMTHECHARREDPLANTREMAINS
Which discusses the issue.
Even now, it's a rare summer where you don't have to dry some grain to ensure that it is dry enough even for storage
(but malting barley is a sensible use of the oven, same oven, different grain, different day :-)
Oooo malting barley.....
It all sounded pretty obvious to me and the fish sauce production is undoubtedly the origin of British tastes for tomato ketchup and vinegar on one's chips.
Just think, without the Romans we would all be slathering mayonnaise on our fried potatoes... :o
Quote from: Nick Harbud on August 11, 2024, 12:14:47 PMJust think, without the Romans we would all be slathering mayonnaise on our fried potatoes...
I must be a Belgian then; mayonnaise or salt, pepper, vinegar are the only acceptable dressings on chips. The mayonnaise is improved further with a good dose of garlic mixed in...
salt and vinegar only if you please ::)
Plus, one has to account for the approximate millennium between the Romans disappearing with their garum, and the arrival of both the potato, chips for the rendering of, and the tomato, ketchup for the slathering of, to these fair shores.
Other than that, an immaculate argument from Oxford Archaeology.
EDIT - unless of course the Welsh Lost Tribe of Israel was popping back across the Atlantic with supplies of either...
Taters. Gaffer's delight...
Sorry to be a bit dull, but returning to the subject of the article. Could brewing have been a "Roman mega-industry"? The one solid bit of evidence in the article seems to point to something similar in scale to medieval brewing. Given the absence of good transport infrastructure and the poor keeping quality of beer, was the main scale of the industry at estate/hospitality premises level, with very local distribution?
You mean, were the Romans early adopters of Red Barrel?
It would certainly explain the decline and fall of the Empire.
:P
Quote from: Nick Harbud on August 11, 2024, 03:59:44 PMYou mean, were the Romans early adopters of Red Barrel?
For overseas and younger members, Red Barrel was a keg beer made by the London brewery Watneys. It had two main faults; it was awful and Watneys attempted to acquire/assimilate lots of regional breweries and turn them into Red Barrel plants. This led to places (e.g. Northamptonshire when I was younger) being dubbed "Watney's deserts" where there was no beer to be had, just Red Barrel. It was an evil time :( Things are much better now. :)
Ouch...
Depends how they made their beer...if high attenuated it might have survived for longer than a Loz Truss govt
Quote from: Imperial Dave on August 11, 2024, 04:12:50 PMOuch...
Depends how they made their beer...if high attenuated it might have survived for longer than a Loz Truss govt
I could say something about lettuces, but that would be political and banned :-X
The other problem with beer from the perspective of military logistics is bulk. It is why the British Army of a couple of centuries ago preferred to issue spirits since the cost of the booze was outweighed by the lower cost of shifting it. Beer went off far quicker than stored water, which again is why the RN replaced beer with rum, allowing it to make barrelled water taste vaguely palatable.
So the Romans are hardly likely to have had a "mega industry" in the sense of large hub breweries, far more likely to have lots of micro breweries near forts and towns, supplying local needs but no further.
I am also reminded of William Kapelle's brilliant theory about Norman appetite for fiefs in some areas of England but not others post 1066, namely the quality of bread they could produce. Why take a fief that could only grow barley, rather than wheat. If your Roman garrison is in a northern location with barley, not wheat, as its staple, beer makes sense. In the lush lowlands, maybe not so much...
Rum solves all problems and if it doesn't you aren't using enough rum
The RN tradition of mixing with rum with water might well improve the taste of the latter.
More importantly, unlike rum, grog (as the mixture was called) does not keep. This forced the matelots to consume their ration more or less on the spot rather than store it up in order to go on a bender at some later date. This ensured that sailors were moderately sober when sent aloft and reduced crew attrition from falls, etc.
Incidentally, the variety of beer known as IPA is an acronym for India Pale Ale. This name arises from the good old days of Empire when beer was sent from UK to soldiers in India and other far distant places. It had to be highly hopped and of good quality to be potable at the end of the journey. Dave can probably supply all the gory details on this for those who are interested.
8)
A great uncle of mine was a surgeon on a Royal Navy Gunboat going up and down the Yangtze from 1910 to 1912, an interesting time to be doing that. From the prodigious quantities of beer that were being ordered in at every stop along the way I have the impression that the whole crew must have been pie eyed most of the time, an impression given some substance by the cursory and enigmatic records in the ship's log. For example, on the 18th October 1911 when the ship was sitting off Hankow with a massive battle between revolutionary and Imperial soldiery going on next to them, the only entry in the log is "Half wardroom sofa lost overboard".
We might want to consider what the beer was for. Was it for a good time in barracks or was it a liquid foodstuff? Did your villa want to be brewing strong beer so the slaves could have a wild time? I suspect not.
To return to mega-industries, I'm not sure that brewing could reach that point in Roman times. AFAIK, they didn't have hops to extend the life of the brew and they were reliant on fairly basic transport links. They could maybe be a bit more than on-premises in towns, where you could ferry barrels round in a cart. Medieval monastries and cathedrals usually had larger scale brewing and could be local suppliers, for example.
Quote from: Erpingham on August 12, 2024, 11:00:50 AMMedieval monastries and cathedrals usually had larger scale brewing and could be local suppliers, for example.
In some parts of Europe this is still the case. I remember, when I worked in Bavaria, I once visited Kloster Andechs (https://www.andechs.de/en/monastery-brewery.html). Despite arriving shortly after opening time, I was beaten to my tour by several coachloads :o of locals completing their pilgrimmage to this place of worship and intent upon getting blitzed in the shortest time possible.
Truly, there are few things Germans do not take seriously.
Quote from: Nick Harbud on August 11, 2024, 12:14:47 PMIt all sounded pretty obvious to me and the fish sauce production is undoubtedly the origin of British tastes for tomato ketchup and vinegar on one's chips.
Of course we do have a fermented anchovy sauce that's popular in the UK - Worcestershire sauce. (Apparently the Americans have a rip off that isn't fermented, and is nothing like the original.)
Just try asking an American to pronounce Worcestershire ;)
Quote from: Imperial Dave on August 13, 2024, 07:45:06 AMJust try asking an American to pronounce Worcestershire ;)
Now, now Dave. No teasing oversees members. The British are not exactly renowned for their ability to pronounce foreign place names. Or foreign anything. We had a fun time with Italian son-in-law at weekend demonstrating our poor Italian pronunciation. Bruschetta anyone? Gnocchi?
Only if travelling to Bisceglie.
;D
Tongue firmly in cheek 😋
Ooooo nice one
Unfortunately, such is the English language, we could go on like this for days :o
Quote from: Imperial Dave on August 13, 2024, 12:00:45 PMQuote from: Nick Harbud on August 13, 2024, 11:58:13 AMOnly if travelling to Bisceglie.
;D
Or Milngavie
Ah... four decades ago, a Glaswegian colleague explained to me that the pronunciation of Milngavie was the utterly infallible test of class in Scots society. All very The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie.
;D
It's like living in Wiltshire, and hearing people from Cambridgeshire trying to pronounce "Mildenhall".
(It's "Minal", by the way.)
Quote from: Cantabrigian on August 13, 2024, 10:11:55 PMIt's like living in Wiltshire, and hearing people from Cambridgeshire trying to pronounce "Mildenhall".
(It's "Minal", by the way.)
The Wiltshire one, yes. The Suffolk one, no.