https://greekreporter.com/2024/11/27/greek-roman-warfare-tactics/
I'm just posting this... :P
???
Hate to puncture the balloon, but the Pyrrhic war was not "the test for the ancient Greek warfare tactics against the Roman legions" since ancient Greek warfare was pretty much a dead duck at this point, superceded by Macedonian pike phalanx warfare which Pyrrhus employed in Italy.
It was interesting to read a description of the Roman army which didn't mention the pilum. But then, the Greeks don't seem to have the sarissa either. A curious piece.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on November 27, 2024, 04:11:51 PMhttps://greekreporter.com/2024/11/27/greek-roman-warfare-tactics/
I'm just posting this... :P
As a dire warning?
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 27, 2024, 05:17:04 PMAs a dire warning?
"This is how bad Slingshot could become if we don't watch out" perhaps?
Quote from: Jim Webster on November 27, 2024, 05:17:04 PMQuote from: Imperial Dave on November 27, 2024, 04:11:51 PMhttps://greekreporter.com/2024/11/27/greek-roman-warfare-tactics/
I'm just posting this... :P
As a dire warning?
As in dont blame me lol...
Question following above comments when did the Romans start to use the pilum? I have always assumed Punic wars, ie after Pyrrhus.
Quote from: Ian61 on November 27, 2024, 07:58:39 PMQuestion following above comments when did the Romans start to use the pilum? I have always assumed Punic wars, ie after Pyrrhus.
It's used by
hastati in Livy's description of the army in the 340s. IIRC there are a few earlier mentions that some people think might be reliable, and others doubt. There's at least one Etruscan excavated example that's reckoned to be 5th century.
Thanks Duncan. One assumes that if the Etruscans had them they would certainly have been available to the Romans earlier than I had though.
PS We did have the hastati using them in our Ilipa game.
I've just found The origins of the Roman pilum revisited (https://www.academia.edu/36697297/The_origins_of_the_Roman_pilum_revisited), which you might find an interesting look at the evidence.
I thought that Italian infantry began with javelins that developed into pila, the heads gradually lengthening. Isn't it the Certosa situla that shows round shields and long as separate grades or contingents of troops. This would have been an Italian system of weapons and tactics that the Romans started out with. The Romans likely started out operating like Samnites or Latins. , or indeed, much like Thracians if we go back to when they were goat herding hill tribes.
Roy
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 27, 2024, 10:57:07 PMI've just found The origins of the Roman pilum revisited (https://www.academia.edu/36697297/The_origins_of_the_Roman_pilum_revisited), which you might find an interesting look at the evidence.
Thanks for reference, that was an interesting read. One point struck me that I had heard about with reference to swords but not understood that it was more general.
QuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Quote from: Ian61 on November 28, 2024, 08:42:59 AMQuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Not so much "all over the peninsula" in the 4th century, but all over the middle bits, certainly. I would guess that this is partly because Romans don't tend to bury people with weapons, while some other Italian peoples do.
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 28, 2024, 11:13:11 AMQuote from: Ian61 on November 28, 2024, 08:42:59 AMQuoteIndeed, it should also be noted that, while the archaeology of Roman military equipment is largely non-existent for this period, this type of equipment is visible in the record for Rome's allies during this period.
Do we actually know is why this is? it's not like the Romans weren't fighting all over the peninsula in the period.
Not so much "all over the peninsula" in the 4th century, but all over the middle bits, certainly. I would guess that this is partly because Romans don't tend to bury people with weapons, while some other Italian peoples do.
And then when they get incorporated into the Roman network they seem to stop (IIRC).
Quote from: nikgaukroger on November 28, 2024, 11:47:47 AMAnd then when they get incorporated into the Roman network they seem to stop (IIRC).
So, can we say the Romans found iron more useful for sticking into people than sticking in the ground?
Undoubtedly ;D