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History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Imperial Dave on March 05, 2025, 06:55:50 PM

Title: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Imperial Dave on March 05, 2025, 06:55:50 PM
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a64051065/excavation-changes-roman-empire-history/

Hopefully not repeated elsewhere...
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2025, 07:10:45 PM
Am I missing something? The Western Empire crumbled in the 5th century, not the 3rd. How does a town that fizzled out 200 years before the Empire fell say anything about the timeline of the collapse?
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Imperial Dave on March 05, 2025, 07:17:28 PM
I didn't write it.... ;D

But yes I was wondering....continuity?
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Erpingham on March 05, 2025, 07:19:59 PM
Remind me when the Roman Empire used to fall, before the discovery of this site?  My recollection is it made it into the 5th century, whereas this site seems to finish in the late 3rd century.

Add : Apologies - this crossed with Justin's post, which notes the same temporal issue.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Adrian Nayler on March 05, 2025, 07:31:52 PM
Should we not by now be anticipating this week's journalist's hyperbole to out-hyperbole all previous journalists' hyperbole?

Should you be interested, you can find more information about the project at Interamna Lirenas here:

https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/interamna-lirenas

Presumably the source of the journalist's story was the open access volume 'Interamna Lirenas: A Roman town in Central Italy revealed' which you can find here:

https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/3d803b87-b120-4a84-8ce0-510a56e3d1cd
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2025, 07:33:40 PM
There was the crisis of the 3rd century, when emperors were changed like old clothing and the Empire split into 3 pieces with barbarian incursions as far as Spain, but it pulled itself together under Aurelian and after him Diocletian, the latter who after 20 years of hard fighting restored the frontiers. Then a fairly stable era until Theodosius at the end of the 4th century when the fall really began under his incompetent sons Honorius and Arcadius.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Duncan Head on March 05, 2025, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on March 05, 2025, 07:19:59 PMRemind me when the Roman Empire used to fall, before the discovery of this site?

According to The Fall of the Roman Empire (1964), with Alec Guinness, sorry, Marcus Aurelius.

Personally, I reckon it was all downhill from Augustus.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Ian61 on March 05, 2025, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 05, 2025, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on March 05, 2025, 07:19:59 PMRemind me when the Roman Empire used to fall, before the discovery of this site?

According to The Fall of the Roman Empire (1964), with Alec Guinness, sorry, Marcus Aurelius.

Personally, I reckon it was all downhill from Augustus.

Surprisingly I had never seen this film so sat down to watch it a few weeks ago. Sorry not a fan, I got bored and gave up in less than half an hour.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Imperial Dave on March 06, 2025, 05:31:43 AM
I blame Tarquin...
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Jim Webster on March 06, 2025, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: Imperial Dave on March 06, 2025, 05:31:43 AMI blame Tarquin...

I always felt that blame had to be apportioned fairly, and Romulus is the man to blame
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Justin Swanton on March 06, 2025, 08:15:32 AM
You could get theological and blame Adam (actually Eve).
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Keraunos on March 06, 2025, 09:31:38 AM
Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2025, 07:10:45 PMAm I missing something? The Western Empire crumbled in the 5th century, not the 3rd. How does a town that fizzled out 200 years before the Empire fell say anything about the timeline of the collapse?


Didn't you know that Rome started declining the moment they threw the Tarquins out?  OK, there were a few ups along the way but the general trajectory was down  ;)
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Erpingham on March 06, 2025, 09:56:45 AM
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 05, 2025, 07:47:07 PMAccording to The Fall of the Roman Empire (1964), with Alec Guinness, sorry, Marcus Aurelius.

Ah, legions in snowy mountains.  Alec Guiness' try out for Obi Wan Kenobi.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Justin Swanton on March 06, 2025, 10:21:48 AM
Quote from: Keraunos on March 06, 2025, 09:31:38 AM
Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 05, 2025, 07:10:45 PMAm I missing something? The Western Empire crumbled in the 5th century, not the 3rd. How does a town that fizzled out 200 years before the Empire fell say anything about the timeline of the collapse?


Didn't you know that Rome started declining the moment they threw the Tarquins out?  OK, there were a few ups along the way but the general trajectory was down  ;)
Oh, right.
Title: Re: Excavation rewrites Roman empire fall
Post by: Justin Swanton on March 06, 2025, 02:08:35 PM
The NY Times review of the movie was....interesting:

So massive and incoherent is it, so loaded with Technicolored spectacles, tableaus and military melees that have no real meaning or emotional pull, that you're likely to have the feeling after sitting through its more than three hours (not counting time out for intermission), that the Roman Empire has fallen on you.

Meself I'm of the opinion that the Roman Empire managed well enough until the sack of Constantinople in 1204.  ::)