Does any member own a Jewish army from the time of Herod the Great? If so I'd be interested to hear what sort of unit and organisational structure they've used and also what sort of classifications they've applied to different troops types. I've carried out some research myself and am forming some conclusions but would welcome the opportunity to see how close they were to the thoughts of others.
The army will be in 6mm and effectively use left over figures from other armies that are further down the painting schedule.
There's a DBM/DBMM army list ("Late Judaean") which covers the last Hasmoneans and the Herodians after Pompey's intervention. One example list at http://www.maws.org.uk/dbmm/armies/2-51-LJuda-400-01.html if you speak DBMM-ese.
I presume you've seen Samuel Rocca's Osprey The Army of Herod the Great and The Armies of the Hasmonaeans and Herod by Israel Shatzman (U of Pennsylvania 1991)?
Duncan,
Yes, I have the DBM Army lists Book 2 (1993) with that army in and I have a copy of the Osprey book.
I borrowed the Shatzman book on an Inter-Library loan and have made some notes from it. I've also read the MH Gracey article "The Armies of the Judean Client Kings".
Whilst these have helped to form an opinion, I just wanted to check what others had done in case I missed something obvious (or not so obvious as the case may be).
Then you know more or less the same as I do: I've not tried to build the army.
I would note that there seem to be helmets with transverse crests on some of Herod's coins - this one (http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/samples/la/world/nations/rulers_p/Coin%20of%20Herod%20Archelaus%20Ethnarch%204%20BC%20-%206%20AD%20Righ.gif) is actually Herod Archelaus, but it's the same style - which might be Roman-style centurions' helmets and thus fit with the rest of the evidence for the "Romanisation" of the heavy infantry. Guy Stiebel's chapter on the military equipment from Jericho mentions iron armour scales, and a find of scales from Masada has been identified as Herodian, so ideally you probably want scale-armoured rather than mailed figures.
In Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10 we find a 'hekatontarchos' (officer-of-a-hundred) in Capernaum, who seems to be a Greek rather than a Jew, but unless the Judaean forces had exclusively Judaean and Idumaean officers, he might belong to the Herodian rather than the Roman army - one cannot see a Roman centurion being able to afford to build a synagogue for the locals (Luke 7:5) even if he wanted to.
This would accord with the presumed Romanisation of Herod's army.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 15, 2015, 12:12:45 PM
In Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10 we find a 'hekatontarchos' (officer-of-a-hundred) in Capernaum, who seems to be a Greek rather than a Jew, but unless the Judaean forces had exclusively Judaean and Idumaean officers, he might belong to the Herodian rather than the Roman army - one cannot see a Roman centurion being able to afford to build a synagogue for the locals (Luke 7:5) even if he wanted to.
Why not, Centurions often commanded Auxiliary cohorts, they were on good money, sixteen times as much as the ordinary legionary file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/XP%20User/Desktop/Speidel_PayScalesRevisited2.pdf
Add in various 'cash bonuses' he could expect when involved with a local population, building a synagogue would be no big deal. It only need by built in the style of the local houses, they're not saying he build anything especially grand. He could pay four or five local lads to build it out of his wages over a period of a few months
Jim
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 15, 2015, 12:12:45 PM
In Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10 we find a 'hekatontarchos' (officer-of-a-hundred) in Capernaum, who seems to be a Greek rather than a Jew, but unless the Judaean forces had exclusively Judaean and Idumaean officers, he might belong to the Herodian rather than the Roman army ...
This would accord with the presumed Romanisation of Herod's army.
Josephus (Ant. Jud. XVII.1.3 and 9, for instance) refers to Roman officers serving in Herod's army - "Rufus and Gratus, who had three thousand of the most warlike of Herod's army with them".
And one would expect Roman officers to be commanding Romanised auxiliaries ...
If our 'hekatontarchos' is in fact Roman (and Jim's evidence allows him to be) then he would be commanding a 'century' and presumably doing so in Herod's army as opposed to Rome's, given that he had interacted with the Judaeans and developed a liking for them and their ways.
The evidence emerging does suggest that Herod's forces were Romanised, at least in part. My best guess is that his regulars would follow Roman-style organisation and equipment, with (as Duncan pointed out) scale armour as the predominant metal type. Appearance might be similar to the Romanised Ptolemaic chap depicted at Sidon.
In fact, Nick Sekunda's reconstruction (http://www.scribd.com/doc/24276749/Seleucid-and-Ptolemaic-Reformed-Armies-168-145-BC-volume-2) of the 'reformed' Ptolemaic army might serve as a guide to organisation. I am not sure about this, but it may be worth a thought.
Given the wide area of recruitment for Jewish forces, 'Romanisation' could well create a common identity
I used a collection of whatever figures I could find in scale armour and carrying a thureos shield for Judaean troops. I found Carthaginian figures useful for this. Adding in a few Marian legionaries also tops up the numbers. I've employed a similar system for Judaean troops in my Hasmonaean army and for Josephus' regulars in my Jewish Revolt.
I have no problem with Roman soldiers becoming officers in the armies of other states, especially those states considered friendly. Their expertise would have been highly sought after and the pay good.
My Judaeans have been thrashed from pillar to post on many a table and yet they endure in my affections. I've never seen another gamer use them and with good reason but the DBM list for Herod's army can be pretty effective.
My Judeans have never got a lot of use.
I've had a lot of fun with them using a Parthian ally. Here you take the absolute maximum of Parthian mounted troops and just build the Judeans round them ;D
Thanks for the responses. Without trying to pretend to be an expert from my limited research:
The general principle seems that Herod had to unite a fairly disparate nation and move it from a Hellenistic base into a Roman world which leads to a mix of terms to describe units and officers, just to add to more confusion. The end of Roman civil war would have produced an excess of officers willing to act in foreign armies. Besides Gratus and Rufus, I came across a Volumnius who seemed to be some sort of chief engineer and there were probably more. Besides these Herod seems to have used his family to head various detachments or smaller forces.
The illustrations in the Rocca book do show some troops with scale armour, but also with chainmail. The illustrations also show a lot of long spears and as they were used both pre and post this period in Jewish armies, it makes me think they were the predominant arm.
I'll try and write up my version of the army list over the next few days and post that so you can have a good laugh at it.
I built a Herodian army in DBMM (the list is essentially unchanged from the DBM version IIRC) a couple of years ago. The bulk of the figures were From the Xyston Maccabean range with Donnington Jewish and Slave Revolt figures used for the poorer quality Judean foot. I used them in a Roman Empire-themed competition as an almost entirely infantry force with a substantial Roman allied contingent. I plan to acquire the figures needed to do the cavalry at Britcon in a couple of weeks and hope to get them on the table again soon.
I found them fun to use. They have a low aggression rating which in DBMM means they will usually get to drive the terrain placement which in turn lets them get the most out of stratagems like Ambush. I was a bit worried they would struggle to get decisive results but got 2 big wins and 2 big losses - if I am going to get a middling score in a competition that's how I like to do it.
Cheers
Mick
As threatened, attached are my current thoughts as to what my Herodian army might look like.
It's not really an army list in the traditional sense, but more a summary of my basic research and how it might translate into what eventually gets painted. Apologies in advance for anyone who was anticipating anything more typical, shorter or interesting.
It is also not truly historical in that it doesn't try to represent a snapshot of the army at any particular time but is more of an overall impression during the course of his reign.
Josephus (Antiquities XVII.8.3) gives us the following glance at the army at Herod's funeral:
"About the bier were his sons and his numerous relations; next to these was the soldiery, distinguished according to their several countries and denominations; and they were put into the following order: First of all went his guards [doruphoroi], then the band of Thracians, and after them the Germans [epi de toutois hoposoi Germanōn = then the Germans themselves in similar number]; and next the band of Galatians, every one in their habiliments of war; and behind these marched the whole army in the same manner as they used to go out to war, and as they used to be put in array by their muster-masters [lokhagōn = commanders of lochoi*] and centurions [taxiarkhousin][/b]; these were followed by five hundred of his domestics carrying spices."
*The Hasmonean or Herodian lochos seems to have been a 500-ish, perhaps 512-man, unit - cf. the Spartan lochos at First Mantinea in 418 BC, which works out at 512 men and see I Maccabees 12:5-23 for a Spartan-Hasmonean connection. Alternatively it could signify a c.500-man cohort, which might allow us to construe a meros as a legion-equivalent.
If I had to guess - which unfortunately is all I can do, so do not put too much weight upon it - I would expect the bodyguards, Germans, Thracians and Gauls to be cavalry. Duncan or someone else might have evidence otherwise.
I have a Herodian army based on the Warrior "Imperial Warrior" List #14 Later Judean 63 BC - 6 AD. I relied heavily on Samuel Rocca's Osprey The Army of Herod the Great. I use a mix of Hellenistic Greeks, Successor States, Parthians, Palmyrans and pre-Islamic Arabs with some Maccabeans thrown in for fun. My figures are mostly Essex and Old Glory 15mm, with a few Donnington, Xyston, Tabletop and old Minifigs in the mix as well.
Cav is basically extra-heavy with lance or medium with javelin and shield. There can be a Marian Roman, Imperial Roman, Parthian or "Bandit" ally general (bandits are basically irregular light medium infantry with javelin and shield - 3 per base, 20mm depth). The core of the army are Judean "cohorts" regular LMI JLS Sh (essentially Hellenistic-style peltasts).
It is actually a pretty versatile army in Warrior.
For some good references on the list here are some links:
Coins:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4700
https://www.academia.edu/4488308/Ariel_D.T._Hasmonean_Coins_Found_in_the_Cave_of_the_Warrior._In_T._Schick._The_Cave_of_the_Warrior._A_Fourth_Millennium_Burial_in_the_Judean_Desert_IAA_Reports_5_._Jerusalem_Israel_Antiquities_Authority_1998._Pp._131_137
http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/samples/la/world/nations/rulers_p/Coin%20of%20Herod%20Archelaus%20Ethnarch%204%20BC%20-%206%20AD%20Righ.gif
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/courses/735/Realia/coins-Judean-vw.html
Good general history:
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/1387/Herod-Great.htm
http://scrollhouse.com
several relevant ebooks –
Between Rome and Jerusalem – 300 Years of Roman-Judean Relations ($15)
Jesus and Empire: The Kingdom of God and the New World Disorder ($15)
https://bible.org/article/roman-military-new-testament
The Roman Military in the New Testament
http://faculty.ucc.edu/egh-damerow/roman_judea.htm
Roman Judea
http://faculty.ucc.edu/egh-damerow/second_temple.htm
Herodian discussion from Livius
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i
Herod the Great
Dead Sea Scrolls - "War Scroll" or "Rule of War" scroll
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/scrolltranslation.html
http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/war
Nice listing of sources, Dave: thanks.
I add the usual caveat about translations, e.g. in an engagement against the 'usurper' Antigonus in Josephus' Jewish War (I.17.4), Herod is wounded in the side by a weapon variously translated as a 'spear' or a 'dart'. Strictly speaking, it is a 'palta', which in Xenophon's time meant a short (c.4' long) javelin carried by Achaemenid cavalry, but in Josephus' might correspond to the
treis ē pleious akontes, plateis men aikhmas, ouk apodeontes de doratōn megethos
(three or more javelins, broad-pointed, not smaller than spears)
carried by Roman cavalry (Jewish War III.5.5).
Prior to this engagement Herod's brother Joseph had moved against Antigonus with a force consisting of 'five Roman cohorts' which had been 'new-raised in Syria' and which were wiped out in a fight resulting in Joseph's death (Jewish War I.17.1). These cohorts had presumably been raised by Herod in his capacity as procurator of Syria under Cassius and Brutus (Jewish War I.11.4). For our purposes we may note that Herod had experience in Roman administration and seemingly also military organisation.
In I.17.9 we get the following description when Herod and Sosius combine forces:
"When he had thus married Mariamne, he came back to Jerusalem with a greater army. Sosius also joined him with a large army, both of horsemen and footmen, which he sent before him through the midland parts, while he marched himself along Phoenicia; and when the whole army was gotten together, which were eleven regiments of footmen [telē pezōn], and six thousand horsemen, besides the Syrian auxiliaries [summakhon = strictly 'allies'], which were no small part of the army, they pitched their camp near to the north wall."
It is not clear whether 'telos' is intended as a Hellenistic 2,048-man formation or as a term denoting 'legion'. Given Herod's involvement with and Sosius' subordination to Antony, plus the listing of Syrians as 'allies', one is tempted to consider the 'tele pezon' to mean 'legions', imitation and/or real.
These pointers seem to suggest that Herod's forces would have had a heavily Romanised flavour.
Quote from: dwkay57 on July 14, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
I've also read the MH Gracey article "The Armies of the Judean Client Kings".
Where might one find this intriguing sounding article? I must read it!
Thanks,
Dave
Quote from: Dave Beatty on July 31, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: dwkay57 on July 14, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
I've also read the MH Gracey article "The Armies of the Judean Client Kings".
Where might one find this intriguing sounding article? I must read it!
Thanks,
Dave
my thoughts exactly, has anybody got the pdf or a url which doesn't lead to a paywall?
Jim
The Gracey article is referenced in the bibliography of the Rocca book and can be found in (I think if I've remembered properly) "Proceedings of a colloquium held at the University of Sheffield in April 1986". I obtained my copy - temporarily - via an Inter-Library loan.
The Shatzman book is probably a better read from a wargamers' perspective. Again I obtained a copy via the Inter-Library loan service and so am reliant on the notes I took.
Dave's army doesn't sound too far off the sort of line up I was envisaging - a mix of legacy Hellenistic types with some new fangled Roman ideas coming in, and the odd barbarian type unit for colour and variation.
Quote from: Jim Webster on July 31, 2015, 05:17:41 PM
Quote from: Dave Beatty on July 31, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: dwkay57 on July 14, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
I've also read the MH Gracey article "The Armies of the Judean Client Kings".
Where might one find this intriguing sounding article? I must read it!
Thanks,
Dave
my thoughts exactly, has anybody got the pdf or a url which doesn't lead to a paywall?
Jim
Not exactly a PDF or URL for the paper, but you can freely download the contents list for the book it's from:
The Defence of the Roman and Byzantine East: Proceedings of a colloquium held at the University of Sheffield in April 1986, edited by Philip Freeman and David Kennedy, Part i. British Institute of Archaeology at Ankara Monograph No. 8 & BAR International Series 297(i), 1986
via D L Kennedy's Academia.edu Books page, if you're a member (it's free to join - go to https://uwa.academia.edu/).
Gracey's article is on pages 311-323, and with the paper's title, this information will be enough for an inter-library loan if you wish to try that way.
I hope there's an article for Slingshot coming from all this excellent discussion?!
Quote from: stevenneate on August 02, 2015, 01:54:52 PM
I hope there's an article for Slingshot coming from all this excellent discussion?!
Yes, I'll be writing it up in the next couple of weeks!
Dave
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on July 29, 2015, 12:16:44 PMIf I had to guess - which unfortunately is all I can do, so do not put too much weight upon it - I would expect the bodyguards, Germans, Thracians and Gauls to be cavalry.
Someone - and I think it's Holder's book on the auxilia - suggests that one or more Thracian cohorts in the post-annexation Roman army in Judaea may have been Herodian units incorporated into the Roman army -
Cohors I Augusta Thracum equitata may be one, but definitely cohort(s) not alae, so at least predominantly infantry, possibly mixed with some cavalry.
I'd agree that the Germans and Gauls were most likely cavalry. Josephus (Antiquities XV.7.3) says that Herod had 400 Gauls who had been Cleopatra's guards, and the most likely source for them would be the Gallic and German cavalry who had been stationed in Egypt with the Gabiniani.
"Doruphoroi" could be practically any type, given the word's long usage for "bodyguards" in general as well as its specific use in the Hellenistic manuals for cavalry spearmen. But if anyone really carried the Macedonian shields shown on a few of Herod's coins (as opposed to their having become simply emblems of status) I suppose the doruphoroi might be candidates.
If you are writing this up Dave, it might work well as a two part article:
- the first part covering the geography, history, sources (both ancient and modern) and likely or known troop types
- the second containing sections from each of those who responded on their interpretation of the evidence and its translation to the table top battlefield.
Quote from: dwkay57 on August 05, 2015, 05:48:44 PM
If you are writing this up Dave, it might work well as a two part article:
- the first part covering the geography, history, sources (both ancient and modern) and likely or known troop types
- the second containing sections from each of those who responded on their interpretation of the evidence and its translation to the table top battlefield.
Great advice, I'll take it as guidance for the articles. I'm also working on a paper entitled "An Analysis of Biblical Military Terms" that is basically an exegesis of every military word (weapons, organization, military ranks, etc) in the Bible.... which is rapidly turning into a massive work approaching book-length. I'll put a synopsis into article form for Slingshot...
I'm re-awakening this thread, just to find out if anyone has come up with any more information since the last post. The first units of my army are mostly completed (see attached pdf if you want to laugh at my painting) and before committing paint to more figures I thought it would be useful to check.
In particular:
1) Does anyone know what the Trachonites looked like? I missed that episode of Star Trek, but am assuming they are some sort of tunic and mix of light weapons / shield type (something similar to figure 94 in A&EofIR springs to mind).
2) Was a Meros a defined organisation or just a collective of whatever troops were available? Up to now I've been considering making it a combination of low quality lightly armoured peltast types (to represent the reservists) supported by slingers and light cavalry. However re-reading some of my notes I think it may just be a wider and less formal mix of troops, possibly regionally based.
3) And what of Achiab's Certain Force? I'm treating "certain" as meaning reliable and dependable. That and it's small size (1,500) makes me think it was a battlefield reserve or rapid reaction force that could be thrown in where needed. On that basis I was going to form it of some reasonable quality infantry and cavalry.
Any thoughts or ideas welcome. Thanks.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: dwkay57 on July 29, 2017, 01:04:34 PM
2) Was a Meros a defined organisation or just a collective of whatever troops were available?
Polybius mentions that at the Trebia the Roman centre broke through the Gauls and a
meros of Hannibal's Libyan troops. In this particular instance (and presumably also as of c.140 BC when Polybius was writing) the
meros seems to have been a formal, or at least homogenous, formation, which I would
guess to be in the region of 500 men, i.e. the next step up from a 256-man syntagma.
It is possible that usage changed in the intervening century-and-a-bit, but I would consider it an approximate cohort equivalent unless any better information emerges.
Oh, plural of
ile is
ilai. :)
Thanks for the spell check Patrick.
I would need to check my notes but I had the feeling that a Meros was more of a brigade level term used for a grouping of 2.500 - 3,000 men including up to 500 cavalry.
Rocca advises that Josephus uses it when talking about the Sebastenoi. I had thought it was more widely applied across the army but may well be wrong on that and it was used just for this particular grouping.
Perhaps a cautionary note but by the 6th century a Byzantine meros was 5-7,000 strong. So, it is possible it was already becoming a larger formation in the East at the time of Herod, as David suggests.
I get the impression that meros is being used by Josephus here simply as 'part' or 'portion' http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0148:book=2:section=51&highlight=sebaste i.e. the Sebastenoi are the most warlike part of the army. Compare the same event in AJ XVII.266 and BJ II.52.
There are cavalry and there are infantry but I don't think we need to assume they are part of the same unit. In the later period, the cavalry are specifically called an ile. The foot are referred to as being in 'tagmata' which elsewhere means legion (e.g. when referencing Caesar's Xth). Cohort seems to be 'taxis' or 'speira'. Telos might also be cohort, or at least an equivalent unit.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/wordfreq?lookup=me/ros&lang=greek&sort=name shows the use of meros in Josephus (and others). I certainly haven't looked at all 250ish examples in Josephus, but he does use the word in its general sense pretty often, and I can't find a specific usage as if it is a particular unit. The times where there are multiple 'parts' that I noticed, it was where an area was divided up or something similar.
I can't find a mention of Achiabus's 'certain force' in Jos. In fact he only gets mentioned a handful of times across BJ and AJ. I wouldn't read too much into 'certain' if it is a translation from the Greek 'τίς' - IIRC it is just a bit of a flourish, like the over- and unnecessary use of 'this' in modern conversational English 'There was this man...' See for example 'στρατιώτης τις ἀνακαλύψας ἐπεδείκνυε τῷ πλήθει τὰ αἰδοῖα'
On reflection, I am inclined to agree with Peter - Josephus need not have followed Polybius' usage.
I googled jewish meros army unit and was surprised to see this thread on first page!
The other references do seem to suggest that meros may mean portion or possibly wing.
If so this gives me a bit more flexibility in how I might structure the army.
200 year ago or so (OK, I exaggerate slightly but it does seem a very long time ago) I started this thread to help guide my plans for a 6mm Herodian Jewish army.
Well, the varnish has now dried on the 379th and final figure of that army. Attached photograph show it in a possible battle line up and hopefully it will appear in a battle report soon (you have been warned).
For those who are really bored whilst awaiting the arrival of Slingshot 332, more details of the army roster are available on my website - just don't tell its all changed since I started painting the first figures.
Quote from: dwkay57 on October 10, 2020, 01:47:38 PM
just don't tell its all changed since I started painting the first figures.
Did you miss the archaeological report? They found a papyrus that shows the whole army was mounted - half of them on camel drawn chariots. So I am afraid you have to get painting again.
:)
P.
Peter, don't forget the war-goats...
Quote from: Tim on October 10, 2020, 07:49:37 PM
Peter, don't forget the war-goats...
Or the unit conscripted from workmen building the temple. They'd look something like a meeting of a group of senior freemasons
that's what I feared...........
Quote from: Tim on October 10, 2020, 07:49:37 PM
Peter, don't forget the war-goats...
They have the advantage that when another unit should suffer, you take it out on the goats instead.
War Goats! Now we are getting somewhere.