A longstanding unfulfilled ambition of mine (one of many, it has to be admitted) is getting a Hohenstaufen Sicilian (1194-1266) army out of my 13C collection. The chief thing missing is a wodge of Sicilian Saracen archers, who acc'd Ian Heath should look largely like Andalusians with some Greek influence (and apparently very little influence from their Latin Christian neighbours and overlords). So I thought I'd ask the resident cognoscenti a) whether they agree this is would be an appropriate look, and b) whether they have any 15mm figures to recommend for the role? Ideally the figures should be close to Mirliton in height and heft because the rest of the army will be mainly from them.
Mirliton do make Muslim archers for the High Medieval period, but I don't think they're appropriate because they look more Middle Eastern than Andalusian and they're too heavily armoured.
ETA: Also, the Mirliton Medieval Muslim range is significantly overscale compared to the Communal and Crusade ranges from which my Christian troops would be. You'd think a single manufacturer would keep a consistent scale between ranges of historical enemies, but you'd be wrong.
Although not ranking among the cognoscenti, I would suggest the illustrations in the Liber ad Honorem Augusti (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti) as a possible guide. Unfortunately few of these include archers, and it is unclear whether the archers in this one (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti#/media/File:%C4%8Ce%C5%A1i_ve_vojsku_Jind%C5%99icha_VI.jpg) represent Saracens, although the composite-looking bow carried by the man with arrow in hand is encouraging: compare the archer contingents in this picture (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti#/media/File:Vojsko_jindrich6.jpg), also from the manuscript; the 'Saracen' archers picture is an enlargement of the middle row.
Peter and Duncan will be better guides to the subject.
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on November 01, 2017, 03:49:24 PM
Unfortunately few of these include archers, and it is unclear whether the archers in this one (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti#/media/File:%C4%8Ce%C5%A1i_ve_vojsku_Jind%C5%99icha_VI.jpg) represent Saracens, although the composite-looking bow carried by the man with arrow in hand is encouraging:
The file name proclaims those men to be Czechs, which may be supported by the legend, which best as I can make out reads
boemij "Bohemians".
(It is not entirely clear to me if this legend applies to the archers or the armoured men above them - but probably the archers as the legends in the upper left seem to be above what they describe. Unfortunately, I can't make out any of the legends in the larger picture to confirm.)
Nevertheless, the archers are rather similar to Heath's illustration of a Sicilian Saracen one, except that that one curiously seems to have simple self-bow.
Heath's archer is apparently based on this carving (http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Monreale_Capitals-Fig35-large.htm) from Monreale Cathedral - the archer is 2nd from the right of the four figures (and obviously has a recurved bow).
There's also http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm for another representation, and Amatuccio's article at http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm which says (based on early Angevin documents) that "Each archer was armed with a bow and a bow case with twenty-five arrows. Their only defensive armor consisted of spaulders, a mail shirt, and roella (buckler)".
At least the Mirliton figures have the round shield ...
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 04:37:51 PM
There's also http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm for another representation, and Amatuccio's article at http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm which says (based on early Angevin documents) that "Each archer was armed with a bow and a bow case with twenty-five arrows. Their only defensive armor consisted of spaulders, a mail shirt, and roella (buckler)".
At least the Mirliton figures have the round shield ...
Thanks: but you appear to've posted the first link twice. :)
If they were mailed the Mirliton figures seem more appropriate (and the DBMM classification as BwI/PsO as perhaps harsh).
Sorry - the Amatuccio article link should have been http://deremilitari.org/2013/07/saracen-archers-in-southern-italy/
The bronze doors by Barisano of Trani (http://www.italianways.com/barisano-da-trani-and-the-door-he-never-signed/) at Trani and Ravello are worth a look. I'm struggling to find a copyable example but a Google search will bring them up. Note the black archer with what appears to be a loincloth a long robe tucked into his belt as well as the guys in turbans.
Addendum : I found a better image and realised I'd written rubbish :( The long robe makes more sense - nakedness in North African troops at this time would be very unlikely for religious reasons.
The archer I linked to - http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm - is very similar to the one from Ravello in Anthony's link. Same artist, different cathedral. I hadn't realised there were two such similar works.
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 05:06:43 PM
The archer I linked to - http://warfare2.netai.net/12/Trani-Archer.htm - is very similar to the one from Ravello in Anthony's link. Same artist, different cathedral. I hadn't realised there were two such similar works.
Threw me too, especially as the artist comes from one of the towns.
Here (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvxqFnMWYAAAz6a.jpg)is another guy in a turban from Ravello.
Now he's really nice - better preserved than some of the others and very "Saracen".
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 05:29:54 PM
Now he's really nice - better preserved than some of the others and very "Saracen".
Would you go with turban wrapped round a helmet, Duncan?
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 04:55:25 PM
Sorry - the Amatuccio article link should have been http://deremilitari.org/2013/07/saracen-archers-in-southern-italy/
Thanks again. I'm surprised that mail shirt, spaulders, and shield merits an "only" as infantry armour in the 13C. Apart from the apparent lack of a helmet, that's surely tolerably heavy protection?
Also, the illustrated ones seem to be unarmoured.
Quote from: Erpingham on November 01, 2017, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 05:29:54 PM
Now he's really nice - better preserved than some of the others and very "Saracen".
Would you go with turban wrapped round a helmet, Duncan?
It could be either a helmet or a cap - impossible to tell. But if they wore turbans wrapped round caps, it would explain the lack of helmets in the inventories Amatuccio drew on.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on November 01, 2017, 05:39:18 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 01, 2017, 04:55:25 PM
Sorry - the Amatuccio article link should have been http://deremilitari.org/2013/07/saracen-archers-in-southern-italy/
Thanks again. I'm surprised that mail shirt, spaulders, and shield merits an "only" as infantry armour in the 13C. Apart from the apparent lack of a helmet, that's surely tolerably heavy protection?
Also, the illustrated ones seem to be unarmoured.
The ones on the bronze doors are nearly a hundred years earlier. The Angevins' are only 200 hundred strong, as opposed to the thousands used earlier. So I'd speculate tranformation from massed units to smaller specialist groups who could be expected to have better kit. Given there were elite groups earlier, these might also warrant the upmarket kit.
Quote from: Erpingham on November 01, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
The ones on the bronze doors are nearly a hundred years earlier. The Angevins' are only 200 hundred strong, as opposed to the thousands used earlier. So I'd speculate tranformation from massed units to smaller specialist groups who could be expected to have better kit. Given there were elite groups earlier, these might also warrant the upmarket kit.
In the period I'm looking at, they're still reported in the thousands (supposedly 10,000 at Benevento 1266), so most being lightly armoured if at all seems a reasonable assumption.
An annoyance about the Mirliton Muslim range, BTW, is that they're significantly taller than the Communal Italian range (from which most of the rest of the army would hail). Not necessarily a deal-killer as they'd be on separate bases, but definitely a strike against them.
Khurasan does some specifically Sicilian Arab archers. The shop is currently off-line but you can see the figures here
http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=norman&full=1
Khursan has gone for the unarmoured look, though provides an optional shield. I think they are a bit smaller than Mirliton.
The Old Glory Andalusian range has some which are pretty nice - again they are unarmoured. They are similar in size to the Mirliton Communal Italians.
Quote from: Swampster on November 01, 2017, 07:50:00 PM
Khurasan does some specifically Sicilian Arab archers. The shop is currently off-line but you can see the figures here
http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=norman&full=1
Khursan has gone for the unarmoured look, though provides an optional shield. I think they are a bit smaller than Mirliton.
The Old Glory Andalusian range has some which are pretty nice - again they are unarmoured. They are similar in size to the Mirliton Communal Italians.
Ah, thanks. 8) I'd found the Old Glory ones earlier tonight, but the Khurasan ones are a nice find. If and when they're up again I guess I'll order a few samples to see how they are size-wise.
I also learn that Baueda intend to expand their Norman Sicilian range with Saracens and Griffons, altho they did not want to give a date for when they may appear.
The original Donnington range had some nice figures for Saracens and Griffons in its medieval range.
They should fit with Mirliton.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on November 02, 2017, 08:21:51 AM
The original Donnington range had some nice figures for Saracens and Griffons in its medieval range.
They should fit with Mirliton.
They don't seem to be available from the web store anymore. The only "Saracens" on offer are from the New Era "Armies of Islam", which includes some Andalusian cavalry and spearmen that may be useable for Sicilians but unfortunately no foot archers.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on November 02, 2017, 09:59:03 AM
Quote from: aligern on November 02, 2017, 08:21:51 AM
The original Donnington range had some nice figures for Saracens and Griffons in its medieval range.
They should fit with Mirliton.
They don't seem to be available from the web store anymore. The only "Saracens" on offer are from the New Era "Armies of Islam", which includes some Andalusian cavalry and spearmen that may be useable for Sicilians but unfortunately no foot archers.
That was the first place I looked. The range is pretty comprehensive so I'd expected to see some Andalusian archers.
Some of the Arab archers would work except they don't look like they are clean shaven.
Looks like he might have phased out the earlier range...a pity there were a few real gems in that.
R
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on November 01, 2017, 08:09:50 PM
Quote from: Swampster on November 01, 2017, 07:50:00 PM
Khurasan does some specifically Sicilian Arab archers. The shop is currently off-line but you can see the figures here
http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=norman&full=1
Khursan has gone for the unarmoured look, though provides an optional shield. I think they are a bit smaller than Mirliton.
The Old Glory Andalusian range has some which are pretty nice - again they are unarmoured. They are similar in size to the Mirliton Communal Italians.
Ah, thanks. 8) I'd found the Old Glory ones earlier tonight, but the Khurasan ones are a nice find. If and when they're up again I guess I'll order a few samples to see how they are size-wise.
The Khurasan webstore is up again
http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/frankish.html
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on November 01, 2017, 03:10:59 PM
Mirliton do make Muslim archers for the High Medieval period, but I don't think they're appropriate because they look more Middle Eastern than Andalusian and they're too heavily armoured.
The main problem with most of the 'muslim' ranges is that they insist upon giving their archers turbans or head scarves, whereas the Monreale and other pictures seem to show a bareheaded archer. Looking through various ranges, you might be better with a contemporary Armenian figure such as this (http://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/muf17-armenian-archer-3747-p.asp)from Donnington New Era range.
Quote from: NickHarbud on November 21, 2017, 06:38:36 PMThe main problem with most of the 'muslim' ranges is that they insist upon giving their archers turbans or head scarves, whereas the Monreale and other pictures seem to show a bareheaded archer.
Not the Ravello and Trani archers discussed on the first page of this thread, though.
Since I've been thinking about this again, I noticed Baueda have added "Norman archers (http://www.baueda.com/hostisimages/nrm6_PROMO.jpg)" to their Siculo-Norman range. The text on the website invokes the Bayeux Tapestry and the painter made most of them blond, but the dress and hip quiver is not very different from the unarmoured Saracen archer from Monreale. They appear to have self-bows, but so does Heath's Saracen.
For some reason, the figure on the left reminds me of Barney Rubble.
Donnington Originals do a nice figure in 15mm.
Based on Heath IIRC
Roy
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 19, 2020, 05:21:47 PM
Since I've been thinking about this again, I noticed Baueda have added "Norman archers (http://www.baueda.com/hostisimages/nrm6_PROMO.jpg)" to their Siculo-Norman range. The text on the website invokes the Bayeux Tapestry and the painter made most of them blond, but the dress and hip quiver is not very different from the unarmoured Saracen archer from Monreale. They appear to have self-bows, but so does Heath's Saracen.
The Baueda figures are a touch smaller than the Mirliton Communal range, though the difference isn't as noticeable as with the Mirliton Arabs.
There is another representation of Sicilian Muslim archers here http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3966/11591/ (Same source Patrick linked to, but different picture).
Bare legs? Needs to pull his hose up?
Same tunic tucked in belt look seen on one of the bronze images.
Quote from: Swampster on April 19, 2020, 08:04:15 PM
The Baueda figures are a touch smaller than the Mirliton Communal range, though the difference isn't as noticeable as with the Mirliton Arabs.
Thanks, that's useful to know :)
I should also mention Khurasan now have another bunch (http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/13THC-sicilian-saracen-archers.jpg) in their 13C range. These are a mix of armoured and unarmoured types, and I believe this is one of the ranges that are decidedly on the large end of 15mm figures.
How about these from ERM? https://shop.eastridingminiatures.co.uk/el-cid--early-crusades-42-c.asp Pictures at the bottom of the page don't match the description apart from the Spnaish archer reaching for arrow.
They look similar to the Outpost figures - same designer perhaps - and my Outpost Crusaders mix fine with Mirliton.
The shop is currently closed though - looks like he is out of materials.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 19, 2020, 08:07:46 PM
Khurasan now have another bunch (http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/13THC-sicilian-saracen-archers.jpg) in their 13C range. These are a mix of armoured and unarmoured types, and I believe this is one of the ranges that are decidedly on the large end of 15mm figures.
I have just received some of these, having rather rashly bought enough for the army without seeing a sample first.
Luckily, they aren't oversized. I have just tried them against a Donnington NE Viking I happened to have to hand, and they are a very good match. One of the Saracens is a touch larger, but not ridiculously so.
P.
Quote from: Swampster on May 16, 2020, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on April 19, 2020, 08:07:46 PM
Khurasan now have another bunch (http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/13THC-sicilian-saracen-archers.jpg) in their 13C range. These are a mix of armoured and unarmoured types, and I believe this is one of the ranges that are decidedly on the large end of 15mm figures.
I have just received some of these, having rather rashly bought enough for the army without seeing a sample first.
Luckily, they aren't oversized. I have just tried them against a Donnington NE Viking I happened to have to hand, and they are a very good match. One of the Saracens is a touch larger, but not ridiculously so.
Thanks, that's good to kow. I've been happy to mix DNE with Mirliton Communals, so sounds like they'd be a good option then.