I have created an Edwardian Conquest English c.1270-c.1330 list for Armati that I hope people will find useful or at least interesting. Armati is my preferred set of ancient/medieval rules but I often find myself dissatisfied with the army lists, the Age of Chivalry English list being a case in point.
Did you consider making the maa an alternate to one of the other mounted bonus troops, rather than just adding more choices?
The new troop type is a difficulty, but then so are lb in general
Didn't Edward have Irish Infantry as well?
R
Quote from: aligern on April 16, 2018, 08:03:47 AM
Didn't Edward have Irish Infantry as well?
R
I think he did but in Armati terms I am not sure that they would be any different from the 5/1/1 English Infantry- some of the Si could be considered Irish.
Quote from: Mark G on April 16, 2018, 07:52:18 AM
Did you consider making the maa an alternate to one of the other mounted bonus troops, rather than just adding more choices?
Originally yes but I thought it ws easier to present troop types separately- my actual view is that the MAA shouldn't exist at all so their inclusion is a sop to those who have appropriate figures and wish to use them.
Quote from: Mark G on April 16, 2018, 07:52:18 AM
The new troop type is a difficulty, but then so are lb in general
It is a a compromise as by giving the army LB as a troop type makes it functionally identical to 100 years War English and I am really unconvinced by the longbow Si in the A2 list. My more radical option was to drop the to being bow armed on the basis that Lb is far too effective in Armati and Edward 1 era longbow men were not as good as their later cousins; they would still be effective against other British Isles Armies.
QuoteMy more radical option was to drop the to being bow armed on the basis that Lb is far too effective in Armati and Edward 1 era longbow men were not as good as their later cousins; they would still be effective against other British Isles Armies.
Don't know much about Armati but this would I think be my preference on the basis of history. While what we would call longbows do seem to have existed at the time, only the minority of archers who were professional archers used them. Arrow supply per archer was much lower too, suggesting different actical usage.
You can predicate the number of on and maa chosen from the bonus as being no greater than 2 .
And say if any one maa is taken then both must be.
(or hobikars if you prefer)
Quote from: Mark G on April 16, 2018, 07:52:18 AM
The new troop type is a difficulty, but then so are lb in general
One problem I see is that they can evade which I am not sure fits in with their battlefield role.
The Irish are not FT , they are mire lije LHI with spear and knife.
R
Quote from: aligern on April 17, 2018, 07:19:13 PM
The Irish are not FT , they are mire lije LHI with spear and knife.
R
I haven't found any info on numbers and type for Irish foot - which of of course isn't the same as saying they didn't exist.
There is an option for LHI spear to represent Welsh allied and Marcher foot in the Welsh campaigns one, could assume some of them are Irish if one wished.
Quote from: Flaminpig0 on April 17, 2018, 09:12:19 PM
Quote from: aligern on April 17, 2018, 07:19:13 PM
The Irish are not FT , they are mire lije LHI with spear and knife.
R
I haven't found any info on numbers and type for Irish foot - which of of course isn't the same as saying they didn't exist.
Morris
Welsh Wars gives a maximum of 361 Irish infantry for the Caerlaverock campaign in 1300. This is from a combined infantry force of 9,093.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 18, 2018, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Flaminpig0 on April 17, 2018, 09:12:19 PM
Quote from: aligern on April 17, 2018, 07:19:13 PM
The Irish are not FT , they are mire lije LHI with spear and knife.
R
I haven't found any info on numbers and type for Irish foot - which of of course isn't the same as saying they didn't exist.
Morris Welsh Wars gives a maximum of 361 Irish infantry for the Caerlaverock campaign in 1300. This is from a combined infantry force of 9,093.
I wonder if Irish in this context means troops provided by the Anglo-Irish Lords than the possibly wilder and woollier Irish proper?
Quote from: Flaminpig0 on April 18, 2018, 11:06:13 AM
I wonder if Irish in this context means troops provided by the Anglo-Irish Lords than the possibly wilder and woollier Irish proper?
A good question. They were provided by Anglo-Irish lords but whether they were "wild and woolly" I don't think we can tell.
The contingents supplied to the Scottish wars by Anglo-Irish lords consisted of men-at-arms (with increasing numbers of hobilars from 1296) while infantry were mostly archers from their "routes" or retinues. Native Irish, if present, were in relatively small numbers IIRC.
The largest native Irish contingent that served overseas was 3,000 men under Felim O'Connor that served in Henry III's Welsh campaign in 1245, so before the period under discussion. They missed the sharp end of the campaign, having stopped off to plunder Anglesey en route, but accompanied the main army for its conclusion.
Cheers
Mick
Quote from: Mick Hession on April 18, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
The contingents supplied to the Scottish wars by Anglo-Irish lords consisted of men-at-arms (with increasing numbers of hobilars from 1296) while infantry were mostly archers from their "routes" or retinues. Native Irish, if present, were in relatively small numbers IIRC.
The largest native Irish contingent that served overseas was 3,000 men under Felim O'Connor that served in Henry III's Welsh campaign in 1245, so before the period under discussion. They missed the sharp end of the campaign, having stopped off to plunder Anglesey en route, but accompanied the main army for its conclusion.
Cheers
Mick
That is really useful info as I hope to create an Armati list for Henry III in the not to distant future- my hope is that it will provide me with an excuse to field the large number of unused crossbow figures I own.
I trust you realise that my description of the 'proper' Irish as 'wild and woolly' is not meant as a pejorative. It is merely a recognition of their independent yet productive life choice combined with an admiration for their unconventional yet stylish and eminently practical attire.
I always thought Irish fashion was a bit beyond the pale.
Quote from: Flaminpig0 on April 19, 2018, 11:29:16 PM
I trust you realise that my description of the 'proper' Irish as 'wild and woolly' is not meant as a pejorative. It is merely a recognition of their independent yet productive life choice combined with an admiration for their unconventional yet stylish and eminently practical attire.
No offence taken, even if nobles actually tended to wear linen :)
I've read that the term Gaedhil (whence Gaelic) actually derives from Welsh Gwydyll, which essentially means "wild and woolly" so you weren't that far off.....
Cheers
Mick
Quote from: Mark G on April 16, 2018, 03:05:23 PM
You can predicate the number of on and maa chosen from the bonus as being no greater than 2 .
And say if any one maa is taken then both must be.
(or hobikars if you prefer)
Is the issue that you feel that there is option for too many horse units?
Only if it us accidental.
If you note that you only include some bonus troops because people may expect them but you think they are wrong, then you need to make sure you haven't accidentally skewed the list by allowing them in top of what you had expected it to be.
Which is why I would expect to bracket the option you don't like with one you do, to prevent someone taking both choices.
Quote from: Mark G on April 22, 2018, 07:54:34 AM
Only if it us accidental.
If you note that you only include some bonus troops because people may expect them but you think they are wrong, then you need to make sure you haven't accidentally skewed the list by allowing them in top of what you had expected it to be.
Which is why I would expect to bracket the option you don't like with one you do, to prevent someone taking both choices.
On reflection I am going to rewrite the list to get rid of the MAA. They don't make a lot of sense as a separate troop type as they are as well protected as a Kn but are faster than their better mounted and probably more motivated social superiors.
Quote from: Mick Hession on April 18, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
The largest native Irish contingent that served overseas was 3,000 men under Felim O'Connor that served in Henry III's Welsh campaign in 1245, so before the period under discussion. They missed the sharp end of the campaign, having stopped off to plunder Anglesey en route, but accompanied the main army for its conclusion.
Cheers
Mick
In our wargame terms would I be right in thinking these troops be Ll/LMI/Auxilia armed with Javelin?
Quote from: Flaminpig0 on April 26, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: Mick Hession on April 18, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
The largest native Irish contingent that served overseas was 3,000 men under Felim O'Connor that served in Henry III's Welsh campaign in 1245, so before the period under discussion. They missed the sharp end of the campaign, having stopped off to plunder Anglesey en route, but accompanied the main army for its conclusion.
Cheers
Mick
In our wargame terms would I be right in thinking these troops be Ll/LMI/Auxilia armed with Javelin?
Yes, that's right. They'd probably have included a small number of LI archers at this period but they can be lumped in with the LI javelins for classification purposes. It's a couple of decades too early for galloglaich and decent light horse.
Cheers
Mick