I have had a figure of 4 quoted to me - I did not know that they had any as part of their normal crew? Anyone know of any sources supporting this?
QuoteThe generals shall also enlist marines, ten for each ship, from men over twenty years of age up to thirty, and archers, four in number.
From the Troezen Decree (http://www.livius.org/sources/content/the-troezen-decree/)
QuoteThe Athenian ships were one hundred and eighty in number, and each had eighteen men to fight upon the decks, of whom four were archers, and the rest hoplitai.
From Plutarch's
Themistocles
Thanks Duncan - do we have any idea on whether they were normal light types or any more heavily armoured?
Well, this article (https://www.academia.edu/34860989/David_M._Pritchard_2018_The_Archers_of_Classical_Athens_Greece_and_Rome_65.1_86-102), which I think I have cited previously in another thread, concludes that the Athenian archers were professionals, well paid, and at least some of them of high enough status to own slaves. So they could probably have afforded some armour. And archers with helmets and/or shields, or even cuirasses, do crop up quite often in Greek art. I can't think of any decisive evidence, though.
Seems a very high ratio of archers to hoplites compared to the stereotype of what the Greeks fielded on land at this time.
Then again, these archers were not being fielded on land, but in a different environment.
It is probably better with Athenians to consider their military resources strategically. They have plenty of hoplites but few archers. They choose to concentrate their archer resource where they think it will be most useful, on their ships.
And the ratio of archers to hoplites does seem to depend upon the individual Greek city. Gelo of Syracuse, for example, offered to provide the following forces provided the Greeks let him be C-in-C.
"I am ready to send to your aid two hundred triremes, twenty thousand men-at-arms, two thousand horsemen, two thousand archers, two thousand slingers, and two thousand light-armed men to run with horsemen." - Herodotus VII.158.4
The Athenian expedition against Syracuse in 415 BC fielded:
"... five thousand and one hundred heavy infantry in all, that is to say, fifteen hundred Athenian citizens from the rolls at Athens and seven hundred Thetes shipped as marines, and the rest allied troops, some of them Athenian subjects, and besides these five hundred Argives, and two hundred and fifty Mantineans serving for hire; four hundred and eighty archers in all, eighty of whom were Cretans, seven hundred slingers from Rhodes ..." - Thucydidies VI.43
So for some cities an archer-to-hoplite ratio of about 1:10 was not unusual, and it is noteworthy how slingers were used to supplement the archers.
Incidentally, the expedition had 100 Athenian triremes and 400 Athenian archers, giving us another check on the customary allocation of four per ship.
I presume we see these archers as skirmishers when deployed on land? Or not?
I think the problem with proportions of archers is that the archers are raised using an entirely different system.
You get the Hoplites you get. They're your citizens, you have that many. You don't need to take them all but you cannot take more.
With archers, you get the number you want to hire. Even if they're citizens (of the lowest financial class) they're serving for pay because they don't have an option.
So a city can make a decision to send out somewhere between 20,000 and 5000 hoplites because that's how many citizens they have. But then they have to decide about archers, largely they'll be the archers they're maintaining already, or the expedition has to kick its heels waiting for more archers to be recruited.
Given Greek city state finances, unless you've got a tyrant the military budget is strictly limited so there aren't many archers maintained
Quote from: Dave Knight on October 06, 2018, 10:39:40 AM
I presume we see these archers as skirmishers when deployed on land? Or not?
At Plataea in 479 BC they operated in a body, in support of Athenian hoplites facing the enemy. This would suggest close formation and perhaps even controlled shooting (volleying), but at any rate not skirmishing.
Less sure how they acted in Sicily; they were there to counter cavalry and light troops, so may have operated both in close formation and skirmish mode. This is guessing so feel free to make your own situation-based guesses. :)
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 06, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
Given Greek city state finances, unless you've got a tyrant the military budget is strictly limited so there aren't many archers maintained
Yes. An alternative to a tyrant is a city sitting on the treasury of a League ...
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on October 06, 2018, 08:31:15 PM
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 06, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
Given Greek city state finances, unless you've got a tyrant the military budget is strictly limited so there aren't many archers maintained
Yes. An alternative to a tyrant is a city sitting on the treasury of a League ...
And they'd have the modern dilemma, defence spending or NHS (or the Athenian equivalent) whereas for your tyrant, military spending IS pandering to his electorate 8)
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 06, 2018, 09:06:41 PM
And they'd have the modern dilemma, defence spending or NHS (or the Athenian equivalent) whereas for your tyrant, military spending IS pandering to his electorate 8)
The Athenians also had a third option, one which was by no means unique to themselves and is still popular in many parts of the world. ;)
"And when Hypereides confronted him with the question, 'When, then, Phocion, will you counsel the Athenians to go to war?' 'Whenever,' said Phocion, 'I see the young men willing to hold their places in the ranks, the rich to make contributions,
and the orators to stop robbing the treasury.' " - Plutarch,
Life of Phocion 23.2
Quote from: Patrick Waterson on October 07, 2018, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: Jim Webster on October 06, 2018, 09:06:41 PM
And they'd have the modern dilemma, defence spending or NHS (or the Athenian equivalent) whereas for your tyrant, military spending IS pandering to his electorate 8)
The Athenians also had a third option, one which was by no means unique to themselves and is still popular in many parts of the world. ;)
"And when Hypereides confronted him with the question, 'When, then, Phocion, will you counsel the Athenians to go to war?' 'Whenever,' said Phocion, 'I see the young men willing to hold their places in the ranks, the rich to make contributions, and the orators to stop robbing the treasury.' " - Plutarch, Life of Phocion 23.2
apparently, along with Phocion, we're still waiting ::)
;D