SoA Forums

Gaming => Battle Reports => Topic started by: Justin Swanton on November 19, 2019, 06:14:24 PM

Title: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Justin Swanton on November 19, 2019, 06:14:24 PM
I'm experimenting with different formats for future battle reports for Slingshot. Here is a DBA game played at the Durban club: Marian Roman vs Marian Roman. I've deliberately left out a text commentary to see if the visuals are clear enough (a commentary would of course be included in a Slingshot article). Do you think it needs arrows? Input welcome.

(https://i.imgur.com/sts0ZEd.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/B7mpjCy.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/SYSrQ4d.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Cc1KHYs.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/oSbzmJM.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/IrbCJee.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/CLbkhRX.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/uEvPOsj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ACTmTa3.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hnDCT0F.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/HVFmW4L.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/idsgV9t.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/6NJsW5H.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/8YyHKZr.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/d7N8R6t.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/t9digIG.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/NvmQJI9.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/8FniRQ2.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/liMRboq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/R4SwbLz.png)

Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Patrick Waterson on November 19, 2019, 07:01:52 PM
It works for me without arrows.

Interesting to see how Blue fatally compromised himself on the very first turn (bound) only to be rescued by his opponent trying to do too many things at once (on bound 3) with too few PIPs.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Erpingham on November 19, 2019, 07:03:27 PM
I'm not a current DBA player, but understand the basics, so I'm probably not the target audience.  But I'm not sure who is.  Is it absolute beginners and the commentary will explain why each element moved as it did and what advantage that gave in the rules?  Or will the commentary be full of humour and warmth and will explain to real committed competition players how the players tactics and game craft unfolded?  Other than that, I'm unclear why anyone would need to know the movements of the elements and even the dice scores of the players.  There are also 20 maps there.  Imagine it as a whole piece, with text, perhaps, per bound.  Or per Red/Blue sub-bound.  Will it be cohesive as an article, or too broken up?
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Justin Swanton on November 19, 2019, 07:26:26 PM
The idea is to give a complete game so the readers can see all the nuances of gameplay and judge for themselves - as Patrick did - where the players went right or wrong. The commentary would be a mix of how the rules work and how the players make the rules work for them (using ZOCs for example), and some fun stuff on the players' plans, hopes and shattered dreams (I was red BTW).
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Erpingham on November 19, 2019, 07:36:47 PM
I think a lot will depend on the quality of the narrative.  I'm interested to see it as a one-off idea of explaining a rule set in detail, with perhaps other sets, like ADLG, given a similar treatment.  I'm still not sure it works best as a Slingshot piece or a piece on the website, where scrolling through might help the reader.   I don't think it would work as a general format for battle reports though.  Be interested to see others' thoughts.

Incidentally, while I knew enough DBA to understand what was going on in terms of the elements moving and interacting, why elements were flying about was a mystery to me, unlike the DBA playing Patrick who could make sense of it all.  Something to bear in mind for the explanatory narrative, I think.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: RichT on November 19, 2019, 09:24:01 PM
I don't know if it needs arrows but I'd quite like to see if arrows help make the moves clearer (else I find I have to glance to and fro between images to see what's changed).

My main thought is what a strange game DBA must be. Why is that blue general playing hide and seek behind the hill? Why do the main battle lines just stand and stare at each other? Why does red's battle line stand idly by while its one unit with enough gumption to advance gets sandwiched by two blues? Is this down to (strange?) player choices or poor PIP scores or is this good DBA play or what?
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: evilgong on November 20, 2019, 06:08:37 AM
I could follow it, but I also know the rules well - what I'd also need would be some ZOD markers to tell if the elements had limited move options.

Post more, it was fun to read through.

david b
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Mark G on November 20, 2019, 07:27:50 AM
Some of the turns seem pretty irrelevant to the outcome.

So the important stuff gets lost while you look for meaning from the pointless turns.

Also, is the narrator a player?  Or an observer?

In line with missing the player interaction, you also miss what each player (or at least yourself playing) was thinking.
Consider the good bits from game of thrones.  When you knew what the plan was, and could see it being played out or thwarted.  Much better than the though absent cgi battles.

So if you can edit it to show key turns, with narrative on what both players were trying to do at that time, I think that is a better story. 

Something is needed to explain what those blue boxes behind the hill were up too all game
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Justin Swanton on November 20, 2019, 08:10:39 AM
Thanks everyone, I'm picking up some good tips.

So, include arrows and ZOCs. Narrative that gives the players' plans beside explaining rules and gameplay, and highlighting key moments. Anything else?

The blue boxes are camps BTW. They don't do anything but if you destroy the opponent's camp it counts as a victory point. 4 points and you win the game (bases count as 1 point and the general counts as 2).
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Erpingham on November 20, 2019, 08:49:25 AM
I suspect Mark is refering to the strange blue column that shuttles backwards and forwards behind a hill for no readily apparent reason.  It is presumably a game play choice, rather than terminal indecisiveness.

To pick up on some of Mark's points, it does depend if this is a tutorial, showing and explaining every move, or a battle report.  A battle report would preferably have a lot less maps (as Mark says, most don't reveal anything important and the mechanism ones, showing dice rolled, don't help understand the battle narrative).  It would be interesting to see if the players had plans or whether they just intended to pick off isolated elements if the chance presented itself.  As a battle report, I'd prefer it to focus on what was being attempted with enough rules explanation to clarify some outcomes (for example, as I think Richard said, it isn't obvious why Red's line does nothing unless you realise DBA restricts movement at random).  As I said, I can see the value as a tutorial or an action based review, but I don't think it makes a good format for a battle report.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: dwkay57 on November 20, 2019, 09:29:20 AM
Not playing DBA, I would need a narrative to explain what was happening and would have preferred photos to diagrams.

My preference would be that the narrative tells the story of the battle starting with each sides intentions, without any real reference to the rules and troop categories. That's what I've tried to do with my battle reports, but given their low readership rate that might not be the most popular option amongst the wider membership.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Mick Hession on November 20, 2019, 09:36:55 AM
I'm not a fan, I'm afraid. There's nothing intrinsically interesting about a random club game and  a turn by turn account is tedious. I could (kind of) see the value of it for a refight like the Knockdoe one but struggle to see what this one is trying to achieve. Perhaps it would have some value as an introduction to DBA for a novice but I suspect there are few enough of those in the SOA.

Cheers
Mick
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: aligern on November 20, 2019, 10:51:03 AM
I suggest its jey that in DBA you only need to destroy a number iof ebemy units....I think its 4  and thus the idd tactcs are because each general wants to create a situation where tgey can get tgat number without a dangerous  full battle line engagement, Also frontal fights are more dice dependent than slipping a unut if psiloi onto a unit's flank and converting a push back into a kill whereas frobtally you would need to double the score?
Should red have tried a general advance once it started to look sticky? My remembrance of DBM is that once the opponent has a one unit superiority you are in trouble  and  tgen best rely on luck.
Perhaps my comments indicate that explanation really is needed?
It looks like it works for DBA and would work fir Armati, L'Art and imoetus or indeed Saga ir Lion Rampant where you have units that move as blocks.  I am not sure that the minestrone that is DBM takes to the number of unique units you would have,
Roy
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Denis Grey on November 20, 2019, 12:40:41 PM
I liked it and could follow it reasonably easily, but then I play a lot of DBA.  I think arrows would help, especially with outcome moves (recoils).  And to be really picky, I don't think Blue could manage all those moves in the first bound with only 4 PIPs.

You'd need to think about other rule systems.  To take my other ruleset as an example, how would you show loss of cohesion in L'Art de la Guerre?  (Maybe add dots on top of the unit for each point lost?)

Denis
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Mark G on November 20, 2019, 01:04:32 PM
Yes, thanks Anthony, that was what I was getting at.

Watching a plan unfold is interesting in itself, especially if it falls apart.
But if the plan is to wait for a lot of high pips, it's not a plan worth following.

So editing is strongly advisable to remove all the "in x rules it helps to do this" stuff which you want in a rules tutorial, but not in a battle report.

You are telling a story, make it a good one and folk will want to read more
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: dwkay57 on November 21, 2019, 09:46:32 AM
If it is a battle report then it really needs to rules neutral (including descriptions of troops e.g. 4,000 legionaires not 2 bases of Blades(I)) and talk describe how the battle went and what decisions were made when and why. If the luck of the rules did play a part then they need to be incorporated somehow (e.g. the plan was too complex for the troops not precisely a roll of 1 on the dice).
And of course it would be great to have the post-match panel of experts commenting on why it all went wrong!

As editor Justin it is your privilege to experiment with different styles of articles. You are doing a great job so a risk on one article is worth it.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Chris on November 21, 2019, 12:40:07 PM
Agree. David's first comment reminds me of the media-saavy reports manufactured by Madaxeman, as these will typically have "talking heads" summing up and analyzing the good and bad of the game and decisions.

With regard to David's second comment, agree as well, but wonder if the general idea might be expanded so that general or specific situations on the tabletop might be explored with various sets of rules. For example: how are warbands charging into Roman legionaries treated with this set and that set and then this set? How are cataphracts treated with or in these five rule books when they are fighting enemy light cavalry or heavy foot? I am guessing that these "briefs" could be completed in 2 or 3 pages, including stunning diagrams and or colour photos . . .

Cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Erpingham on November 21, 2019, 01:19:54 PM
Perhaps we should keep some of these streams separate?  A comparative review of how different rules cope with different situations, or armies, or troop types is different to a battle report, IMO.  It is certainly harder to do, as it will need expertise in various rule sets, and several runs of the game.  Not a bad thing to have, but not what Justin set out to do.

I'm wondering if we need to separate too the idea of a game report and a battle report.  Justin's is a game report, showing the movement of every element and the result of every dice throw.  It sort of reminds me of an IKEA instruction sheet - great if you want to build a Billy bookcase but not what you'd want in a lifestyle or interior design magazine. 

A battle report, as has been said, would probably focus more on the game as a representation of period warfare, of plans and their success and failure, points where the rules had a particular impact and so forth.  If it represented a particular battle, how the features of that battle were reflected in the refight.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: RichT on November 24, 2019, 03:56:24 PM
Having seen the Knockdoe report in print I'm not sure the tints of colours to identify the unit types are clear enough - would symbols (like the familiar cross for infantry, diagonal for cavalry etc) work better?
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Dave Knight on November 24, 2019, 06:32:56 PM
Kudos for all the work that went into this and great for those who like it.

Not my thing though so for me much better on the forum than in the pages of slingshot
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Nick Harbud on December 08, 2019, 10:30:40 AM
IMHO it would work better as an animated PowerPoint.  In other words, as a Forum addendum to a Slingshot printed article.

Incidentally, not sure how many players record their battles in such detail outside of set pieces like Mick's Knockdoe or Chris Hahn's various pieces.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Erpingham on December 08, 2019, 12:36:58 PM
Perhaps with spoken commentary as opposed to text?  I like the idea of an online extras bit of Slingshot in general (and Justin has experimented here with putting clickable links from article references on the website before) but I don't know how easy it would be.  Certainly Justin has the technical capability (and more) but I'd not want to put additional burdens on him.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: Justin Swanton on December 08, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on December 08, 2019, 12:36:58 PM
Perhaps with spoken commentary as opposed to text?  I like the idea of an online extras bit of Slingshot in general (and Justin has experimented here with putting clickable links from article references on the website before) but I don't know how easy it would be.  Certainly Justin has the technical capability (and more) but I'd not want to put additional burdens on him.

I had thought quite a bit about tying Slingshot with the Society's YouTube channel (adding animated battle reports or other relevant videos to the current issue) but that would really be too much work.
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: simonw on February 13, 2020, 07:44:28 PM
Justin,
I like the maps. They are quite clear and could easily be scaled up for bigger Tactica 2 and other battles. They do show some aspects that could do with explanation but that could easily be added with a few notes referenced to the plans by number/Turn.

One thing that strikes me is the open flank of the blue infantry line which in our Tactica 2 games would have attracted the red force's cavalry to flank it within a couple of turns. A small unit of psiloi on the hill would not have encouraged me to advance into the open plain with my open left flank exposed like that.                   
Cheers
Simon
Title: Re: Totally visual DBA battle report
Post by: simonw on February 13, 2020, 07:59:57 PM
Justin,
The maps are good and clear. It's easy to see the game unfold. A little explanation of various moves could easily be added as notes referenced to the maps by Turn/No.

Incidentally, blue's advance with an open (left) flank of his infantry line seems a strange thing to do. It's not the sort of move I would do in our Tactica 2 games. Also, the way the battle lines break up with the various 'twists and turns' is not the kind of game that I particularly like. I think that red force's elite cavalry would have been around the flank of the blue infantry line 'like a shot' in our Tactica 2 games and the red infantry line as a whole would have advance to engage the blue infantry line from the front whilst the red cavalry 'cleaned up' the blue forces from behind.
I don't think that the 'turn about' of the blue cavalry force from behinf d the hill would have arrived in anything like enough time.

In sum, it seems that the DBA rules and the Tactica 2 rules produce radically differing 'styles' of game. In Tactica 2, the blue force would have stood very little chance of victory with these deployments and the advance of the infantry line.

Cheers
Simon