Is there any consensus on how Patrician-period Foederate units might be distinguished from similar allies? My understanding is they would look very "Roman", be led by their own leaders but not be uncontrollable/impetuous. Might this Romanised appearance extend to shield patterns? As many became Auxilia Palatina in later service there is plenty to go on.
I'd be interested in other more knowledgeable people's opinions on this as well! I normally use geometric patterns and or animal motifs but its pure guesswork on my part!
Personally I'd go with the "foederate" units having unit shield patterns as unit shield patterns were a thing for the Roman army of which they are a part. Allies would, of course, be different.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 09:19:16 AM
Personally I'd go with the "foederate" units having unit shield patterns as unit shield patterns were a thing for the Roman army of which they are a part. Allies would, of course, be different.
That is what seems "logical" but as we know logic is a trap for the unwary ;-)
I was going to paint some simplified Ax Pal designs as they had not yet reached "regular" status. The "head in a stake" Germanic style seems apt
Quote from: Holly on December 29, 2019, 10:53:40 PM
I'd be interested in other more knowledgeable people's opinions on this as well! I normally use geometric patterns and or animal motifs but its pure guesswork on my part!
That also seems a sensible approach Holly. My logic is that Foederate became more regular the longer they campaigned and eventually became fully-fledged Auxilia until the changeover to the generic heavy infantry in the late period.
Quote from: Ade G on December 30, 2019, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 09:19:16 AM
Personally I'd go with the "foederate" units having unit shield patterns as unit shield patterns were a thing for the Roman army of which they are a part. Allies would, of course, be different.
That is what seems "logical" but as we know logic is a trap for the unwary ;-)
I was going to paint some simplified Ax Pal designs as they had not yet reached "regular" status. The "head in a stake" Germanic style seems apt
Guess it depends on what you think the foederati troops actually were - personally I don't think the bit in the DBM list blurb is really what the general view these days is, but that's another long discussion :o
But to pick up on one thing is there any current consensus on the origin of the patterns in the Notitia? Last time I looked at it (a long time ago) the attributions often given to the different styles did not appear to be based on much concrete. Not that that would be a reason not to use what you want ;D
Probably something I ought to think about actually as I'm looking to do a very late Western Roman army, say about 470CE, for MeG when the PSC plastics are released. Minimal "Roman" troops but a good chunk of "barbarised Romans" mainly drawn from the Franks.
I suspect that Foederate were actually a lot of different things. The spectrum seems to range between vaguely unit-sized groups under their own leaders taking orders from Roman Army officers to trained and uniformed Auxilia Palatina and all possibilities in between.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
Probably something I ought to think about actually as I'm looking to do a very late Western Roman army, say about 470CE, for MeG when the PSC plastics are released. Minimal "Roman" troops but a good chunk of "barbarised Romans" mainly drawn from the Franks.
That is what I am looking at as well Nik. I use ADLG rules but not their lists so will have Regular, garrison, federate and allied troops. Also a chance to field a few horse archers
sounds right up my alley way too..!
Quote from: Ade G on December 30, 2019, 08:19:50 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
Probably something I ought to think about actually as I'm looking to do a very late Western Roman army, say about 470CE, for MeG when the PSC plastics are released. Minimal "Roman" troops but a good chunk of "barbarised Romans" mainly drawn from the Franks.
That is what I am looking at as well Nik. I use ADLG rules but not their lists so will have Regular, garrison, federate and allied troops. Also a chance to field a few horse archers
I'm ending up reading around the Franks and northern Gaul for the period to try and get a handle on it - bit of a rabbit hole :P Definitely an age of insufficient light ;)
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: Ade G on December 30, 2019, 08:19:50 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 30, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
Probably something I ought to think about actually as I'm looking to do a very late Western Roman army, say about 470CE, for MeG when the PSC plastics are released. Minimal "Roman" troops but a good chunk of "barbarised Romans" mainly drawn from the Franks.
That is what I am looking at as well Nik. I use ADLG rules but not their lists so will have Regular, garrison, federate and allied troops. Also a chance to field a few horse archers
I'm ending up reading around the Franks and northern Gaul for the period to try and get a handle on it - bit of a rabbit hole :P Definitely an age of insufficient light ;)
I have been reading Simon Macdowell's Franks book for ideas
Quote from: Ade G on December 30, 2019, 09:52:17 PM
I have been reading Simon Macdowell's Franks book for ideas
Yup, just done that. It was OK IMO.
Also revisited Halsall's "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West".
Halsall's good
Quote from: Holly on December 30, 2019, 10:55:38 PM
Halsall's good
Best single book on the subject IMO with the benefit of being pretty readable unlike some academics ;)
Just tobsay, that it wasvpointed out to me that the 'heads on stakes' shield pattern is more likely a lion's head!
Roy
Quote from: aligern on December 31, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Just tobsay, that it wasvpointed out to me that the 'heads on stakes' shield pattern is more likely a lion's head!
Roy
That slightly spoils the "ex-barbarian" image Roy :-)
AG
There is also an article on the dragon and pearl shields ( anyone got it?) . These appear to be a Chinese symbol which transferred across to the West.
You are no doubt familiar with Luke Ueda Sarsson's articles on the web.
Roy
Quote from: aligern on January 02, 2020, 11:55:13 PM
There is also an article on the dragon and pearl shields ( anyone got it?) . These appear to be a Chinese symbol which transferred across to the West.
Try here (https://resources.metmuseum.org/resources/metpublications/pdf/The_Dragon_and_the_Pearl_The_Metropolitan_Museum_Journal_v_26_1991.pdf) to download the pdf.
Thanks Duncan!
Roy