Hi guys,
I am looking for a couple of suitable 15mm elephant models to form the Southern Han elephant corps. So far the only Chinese elephant figure I have found is the Essex Shang or Chou elephant (https://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/15mm-ancient-shang-or-chou-chinese/products/choe14). This shows a driver plus 1 crew with javelin/spear astride. However, various lists allow me up to 4 archers, which would probably require some sort of platform or howdah to fit them all on.
Any suggestions for something suitable or, indeed, any illustrations of what these magnificent beasts might have looked like?
They had towers on their backs, and "more than ten" armed crew, if I remember Schafer's article (https://www.jstor.org/stable/1579643?seq=1) correctly.
I don't think anyone makes such an elephant, not explicitly identified and with Chinese crew. David Brown of Evil Gong was discussing producing such an elephant at some point, but I can't recall how far it got - I think he may only sell via Facebook these days? You could use almost any Indian or Islamic towered elephant as a basis, I imagine.
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2020, 01:59:57 PM
They had towers on their backs, and "more than ten" armed crew, if I remember Schafer's article (https://www.jstor.org/stable/1579643?seq=1) correctly.
"Each carried ten or more men, presumably on some sort of platform, and all were stationed in line before the host", he writes.
Apparently the Southern Han weren't playing by rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal.
We're also told they were eventually defeated by Song crossbows. It makes intuitive sense to me that elephants would be vulnerable to massed archery, but this clearly doesn't universally apply in practice; cf especially ancient India, where massed foot archery apparently did nothing to discourage the use of the beasts.
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 02, 2020, 02:49:09 PM
Apparently the Southern Han weren't playing by rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal.
Kenneth Swope on a C17th rebellion against the Ming (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AJdcDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT314&lpg=PT314&dq=yellow+tiger+13+elephant&source=bl&ots=oYZM_uwgqv&sig=ACfU3U2DPDV7is6l1p4HV_kZG5Sdcdzv2g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ49vJhfznAhUbHcAKHfYvCtoQ6AEwCnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=yellow%20tiger%2013%20elephant&f=false):
QuoteAnother problem was that Liu arrayed his thirteen elephant cavalry in the front of his formation, intending to use them as shock troops and protect the mostly unarmoured troops in the centre of his army.
Maybe it depends how close you're standing, or how closely-packed you are?
Edit: Actually, it looks as if they were playing by the same rules:
QuoteOn 20 January the eastern Song army had almost reached Shaozhou. Li Chengwo arrayed a Southern Han army of more than a hundred thousand troops beneath Lianhuafeng Mountain blocking the Song army's route to the capital. War elephants, each carrying more than ten men, were placed at the front of the Southern Han formations to strengthen them. The Song army concentrated its crossbow fire on the elephants, causing them to flee. All the soldiers riding on the elephants were thrown off and trampled as the elephants stampeded back into the Southern Han formation. The Song army attacked the shatterred and disorganized Southern Han army, destroying its remaining cohesion.
From Peter Lorge's thesis at https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1630&context=edissertations - probably in the
Reunification... book as well, but not at hand.
Evidently I should amend my statement: Apparently the Southern Han thought they weren't playing rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal. :)
Some historical commanders just didn't read the rulebooks :(
Can an elephant actually carry ten men ? ( as opposed to having a ten man team with it),
Roy
Quote from: aligern on March 02, 2020, 05:46:56 PM
Can an elephant actually carry ten men ? ( as opposed to having a ten man team with it),
Roy
A bit of googling suggests that an elephant can carry about 25% of its body weight and Asian elephants weigh up to 4,500 kg. So up to 1,125 kg. Victorian reports suggest baggage elephants could carry up to 20 cwt (1 ton) which seems to fit. So 10 men should be possible if they didn't have a lot of armour.
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2020, 03:52:08 PM
Some historical commanders just didn't read the rulebooks :(
Another way in which some wargamers seem to emulate their historical counterparts...
Yes I made up an armorued and unarmoured elephant (and a baggage elephant) to go with my SD Chinese.
No, they don't have 10 crew only 3.
David Brown
Evil Gong Miniatures
Many thanks to all who have responded.
David, I would very interested in your elephants. Can you post a picture?
I also notice that Khurasan produce a baggage elephant figure (http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/bagel.jpg) that includes a guide, as noted in Schafer's article referenced above. They also have this Khurasanian/Ghaznavid war elephant (http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/km9.jpg) with tower that might be suitable.
All comments gratefully received.
That Khurasan nellie is quite similar to Donnington's Timurid one (https://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/timel01-armoured-elephant-1185-p.asp).
Ghaznavid elephants perhaps? Khurasan Miniatures does one. Use something like Essex's generic or Chin Chinese infantry for the crew.
Sorry i missed an earlier post.
I've put a pic of baggage and an armoured elephant on my FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/333789030678034/photos/pcb.571021533621448/571021456954789/?type=3&theater
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 02, 2020, 02:49:09 PM
"Each carried ten or more men, presumably on some sort of platform.
Presumably, is quite a telling word.
It suggests there is no mention of a tower or a platform in the original text.
It might be a fair inference, but an inference only.
I will try and find the original tonight.
If it helps, the reference is Song Shi 65.5699b
I don't mean to be a killjoy... but, Schafer also says that, "this battalion (of elephants), under the command of Wu Hsun, was effective during the Han invasion of Chu in 948CE, especially at the Battle of Ho."
But if we chase down the quote in 65.4469c, it says that, "Cheng thereby dispatched Wu Xun, director of the Giant ELephant regiments, and eunuch Wu Huaien to attack Hezhou."
So it mentions the director of Giant Elephants, but it doesn't mention elephants, or elephants being effective. That is Schafer's inference from Wu Xun and Wu Huaien capturing the province. Again, it might be fair, but worth flagging. One siege and one raid are described, but no elephants are mentioned.
I looked it up, and it does indeed say that every elephant carried 10 men (每象載十數人) Song she 481.5669.
It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.
It does mention the poor oliphaunts were shot up by crossbowmen.
I remember an article by Philip Rance on elephants. Apparently they are useful in sieges because tgey can batter doors down with their heads , plus, of course a large elephant with a tower would be at the height of a low wall.
On holiday in India I noticed that doors of forts and palace castles had large projecting arrays of spikes at elephant head height to prevent them being pushed in by a large elephant.
Roy
Quote from: Dangun on March 18, 2020, 09:42:40 AM
It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.
Given Schafer's "presumably", it'd surprised me if it did!
I confess to some puzzlement how you'd usefully get ten men atop a single elephant with or without a platform. The weight (say 600 kg for ten unarmoured men) may be manageable, but it's gonna be pretty cramped, and war elephants in better-attested times and places never seem to have carried that many men.
Similar numbers
are quoted for other obscure elephant corps, e.g. a Chinese description of Indo-Hephthalite war elephants, though, so it's not wholly unprecedented. But one dearly wishes one of the writers in question would have explained how it's supposed to work! It's hard not to wonder if it's exaggerations, or cases of ten men being assigned to each beast without all of them riding it simultaneously. Or militarily useless numbers squeezed in for parades?
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 18, 2020, 10:40:26 AM
Quote from: Dangun on March 18, 2020, 09:42:40 AM
It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.
Given Schafer's "presumably", it'd surprised me if it did!
I confess to some puzzlement how you'd usefully get ten men atop a single elephant with or without a platform. The weight (say 600 kg for ten unarmoured men) may be manageable, but it's gonna be pretty cramped, and war elephants in better-attested times and places never seem to have carried that many men.
Similar numbers are quoted for other obscure elephant corps, e.g. a Chinese description of Indo-Hephthalite war elephants, though, so it's not wholly unprecedented. But one dearly wishes one of the writers in question would have explained how it's supposed to work! It's hard not to wonder if it's exaggerations, or cases of ten men being assigned to each beast without all of them riding it simultaneously. Or militarily useless numbers squeezed in for parades?
one assumption in these cases is that they are the men who fought 'with' the elephant rather than just 'from' the elephant. So they'd be the escort on foot as well
In the 每象載十數人 that Nicholas quotes, 載 is "carry" or "convey" (according solely to Google Translate, I claim no knowledge) which does sounds as if they are "carried on" rather than merely "accompanying".
Maybe "ten" could perhaps just be meant for "several"?
"Giant Elephant regiments"? Could be a bunch of obese eunuchs with bellies like a Games Workshop ogre. Note to self - build regiment of obese eunuchs. I have Egyptian priests and medieval monks so why not?
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 18, 2020, 02:04:48 PM
In the 每象載十數人 that Nicholas quotes, 載 is "carry" or "convey" (according solely to Google Translate, I claim no knowledge) which does sounds as if they are "carried on" rather than merely "accompanying".
Maybe "ten" could perhaps just be meant for "several"?
Indeed. It does mean carries.