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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Dave Knight on Today at 08:42:36 PM »
 Was there no intermediate type between gallowglas and Kern? I am right in saying that Kern were javelin skirmishers not likely to be of much use on an English battlefield
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Jim Webster on Today at 08:18:07 PM »
The Irish at Stoke were led by the earl of Kildare's brother and Kildare had few galloglass at that date: the first in his employ formed an understrength company of just 24 men in 1478. Even at the height of power he only maintained a couple of hundred directly - they were neither numerous nor cheap.

Kern were however plentiful and expendable. Sometimes you field what you've got, not what you'd like  :)

Cheers
Mick

I suspect that the galloglass were better deployed making sure home was safe when you went off on your foreign jaunt with the cheap and expendable kern
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Mick Hession on Today at 07:27:40 PM »
The Irish at Stoke were led by the earl of Kildare's brother and Kildare had few galloglass at that date: the first in his employ formed an understrength company of just 24 men in 1478. Even at the height of power he only maintained a couple of hundred directly - they were neither numerous nor cheap.

Kern were however plentiful and expendable. Sometimes you field what you've got, not what you'd like  :)

Cheers
Mick
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Jim Webster on Today at 05:30:02 PM »
I personally suspect that you might get 'units' formed by men of separate nations (Welsh, French, Germans) because of language problems rather than the difference in weapons

With regard to mixing archers, all, whether they were militia or retained, would doubtless use the same techniques, (and probably competed against each other at the butts on Sunday anyway). So I can see them being mixed, perhaps the retained being regarded as NCOs or forming a front rank where they might be able to use any superior accuracy.

With the rest of the infantry, I suspect that we're more hung up on weaponry than they were and I would guess men at arms around the leaders, with the best retained men stiffening the others, with the poorest at the back,
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Weapons and Tactics / Re: Wielding the sarissa in synaspismos, again
« Last post by RichT on Today at 03:29:40 PM »
Nice find. 'Akropolis' appears to be a Serbian Journal of Hellenic Studies. (ETA - or Montenegran since it's .me)

Of course it doesn't really change where we are at, since the high guard has always been an option (only Matthew AFAIK claims it's impossible), it's just an option without any positive evidence. This guy has at least mustered a phalanx of two men, which is one more than anyone else has managed, and I think his case is generally compelling, but I do wish he had tried other techniques as well (such as angled shields), rather than just trying to prove one thing possible which almost nobody doubts.
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Dave Knight on Today at 02:56:16 PM »
Good debate

I tend to shy away from differently armed units other than those I outlined above.

My position is that the idea of units themselves are us forcing concepts from different eras into this one.  We use it to break down a conglomeration of troops ( A Battle) so that one part of it may get pushed back or routed.

I have covered the foreign troops under mercenaries/allies

Quick question on Stoke - it seems rather odd that the only troops brought over from Ireland were kerns (javelin armed skirmishers) - surely armoured guys with big chopping weapons would have been much more useful?
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Mick Hession on Today at 01:11:36 PM »
Apart from galloglass (who didn't fight in England) axes were rare in Ireland by the 15th century. The Irish at Stoke were kern so armed with javelins and knives.

Cheers
Mick
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Hey! He pinched all my ideas! If I see him I'll moer him.

Well at least somebody out there agrees with me...
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Army Research / Re: Writing army lists for the Wars of the Roses
« Last post by Erpingham on Today at 12:17:33 PM »
I don't think there is a solid base of evidence for any units of spearmen from Wales, simply because we don't know much about weaponry of the time.  The fact that Wales had its own form of bill in the 16th century might make us pause.  Mixed bill/spear units do seem to be present in Henry VIII Welsh militia, though, so this could well be rooted in 15th century practice.

Distinguishing between types of polearms (bills, axes, voulges, guisarmes etc.) depends on the rules but I can't think of much functional reason.
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Weapons and Tactics / Re: Wielding the sarissa in synaspismos, again
« Last post by Erpingham on Today at 11:57:14 AM »
The History department of the University of KwaZulu-Natal is based in Durban, so who knows?
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