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For your interest and consideration.

Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.

Quote from: Wien1938 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:36 PMFor your interest and consideration.

Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.

And this time no go-pros were damaged in the making of the film.

Quote from: Ian61 on April 19, 2023, 07:32:06 PM

Quote from: Wien1938 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:36 PMFor your interest and consideration.

Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.

And this time no go-pros were damaged in the making of the film.

    

Interesting, but still missing the point - range is nothing, penetration is everything.
And accurate penetration is all.

Roll on episode 3

If you can do ballistic calculations (not my skill!), then from the data in the vid you can get to approximate penetration figures.

So for a trained and experienced legionary with mailshirt and shield, something like 30 meters and up. What is interesting is the difference between carrying armour and not carrying it. It makes sense of leves being completely unarmoured - being purely missile troops they can throw further if not encumbered. Velites had a small, light shield and no body armour - to maximise their throwing range whilst allowing them to be melee troops at a pinch?

If a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.

Following on from Justin's comment, I looked up the differences between the hasta velitaris and the pilum.  I found this article, which describes the weapon and experiments with throwing it with an amentum (throwing strap).  Mark will be happy it does include penetration data  Interesting to compare.

QuoteIf a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.

Though this does assume that our velites take things to the brink of disaster.  Would they still be throwing with the enemy about to charge or is that what they gave hastati pila for?

Quote from: Erpingham on April 20, 2023, 11:19:44 AMFollowing on from Justin's comment, I looked up the differences between the hasta velitaris and the pilum.  I found this article, which describes the weapon and experiments with throwing it with an amentum (throwing strap).  Mark will be happy it does include penetration data  Interesting to compare.

QuoteIf a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.

Though this does assume that our velites take things to the brink of disaster.  Would they still be throwing with the enemy about to charge or is that what they gave hastati pila for?

Interesting article. The javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used. At 50 yards the javelineers have about 18 seconds before the enemy closes to contact with them.

But I'm wondering about how velites were used. There were relatively few Class V skirmishers in the early legion and leves in the later Livian legion, enough perhaps to form a couple of ranks. They could all throw javelins and retire through the heavies behind them before the enemy could reach them. But what about the later velites? They would form 5 ranks in a standard-sized legion. If each was armed with 3-5 missiles would they all have time to throw them in less than 18 seconds? I doubt it.

However, if the velites threw a volley then retired behind the hastati (who then doubled files from open to intermediate order), some could stand behind the hasatati whilst the rest occupied the file spaces of the principes and possibly triarii still in open order, and continue to pepper the enemy with javelins from there. Overhead missile support of HI engaged in melee was a common technique and the velites would have no trouble fulfilling the role.

Edit: some quick maths. The hastati in intermediate order at 6 ranks would be 6 meters deep. The Principes with files in open order would be 12 meters deep. The triarii also in open order would be 6 meters deep. That's a total minimum depth of 24 meters, with some extra depth between the lines. If the javelins can be thrown to 50 meters then the velites could pepper the enemy from anywhere in the legion, and if they have 3-5 javelins and only about 18 seconds in front of the legion to throw them then for sure they are doing rear-rank shooting.

QuoteThe javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used.

For completeness, we might bring in this article, which was discussed at length a few years ago here

On Roman velite tactics, I leave it to those fascinated by Roman Republican armies to explain what we know.

Quote from: Erpingham on April 20, 2023, 12:51:59 PM

QuoteThe javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used.

For completeness, we might bring in this article, which was discussed at length a few years ago here

On Roman velite tactics, I leave it to those fascinated by Roman Republican armies to explain what we know.

It is a fascinating topic. Polybius (to rehash a very hashed topic) describes the legion of the Latin War thus (Histories 6:21):

QuoteThe division is made in such proportions that the senior men, called triarii, should number six hundred, the principes twelve hundred, the hastati twelve hundred, and that all the rest as the youngest should be reckoned among the velites. And if the whole number of the legion is more than four thousand, they vary the numbers of these divisions proportionally, except those of the triarii, which is always the same.

So a book strength legion of 4000 men had 1200 hastati, 1200 principes, 600 triarii and 1000 velites. Presuming it deployed 200 yards wide (I'll go into that if anyone's interested) that gives the velites a depth of 5 ranks.

The velites do not constitute separate units like the hastati, principes and triarii, but are co-opted to these latter - "the velites are divided equally among all the companies". By "equally" I think Polybius means "proportionately". Since the triarii are half the number of the hastati or principes, they get half the number of velites, thus 400 are assigned to the hastati, 400 to the principes and 200 to the triarii.

If the velites are co-opted to the units of hastati, principes and triarii they must evidently fight with these units, and Polybius confirms this:

QuoteThe youngest soldiers or Velites are ordered to carry a sword, spears, and target (parma). The target is strongly made, and large enough to protect the man; being round, with a diameter of three feet. Each man also wears a headpiece without a crest (galea); which he sometimes covers with a piece of wolfs skin or something of that kind, for the sake both of protection and identification; that the officers of his company may be able to observe whether he shows courage or the reverse on confronting dangers.

How would the velites fight with the other troops of the legion? My take is that they do so by initially throwing their javelins from those units and, later on, forming the rear ranks of those units (2 ranks each for the hastati and principes and 1 rank for the triarii), helping out in melee combat. A 3-foot wide shield "strongly made" is clearly meant for hand-to-hand fighting. And they have a sword.

From a rule writer's point of view it's interesting that there was only 50% extra throwing 'naked' as opposed to shield and armour. Depending on ground scale of your rules, that isn't a lot. In DBx it might actually be the difference in base depth between psiloi and heavy infantry 

40-45 years ago I was a young man just like Michael.  Just like my Father before me, I inherited a fast arm and reached County Standard (so Michael is one better).  However, I trained for 6 years with 6 months of each year (2 terms) dedicated to Athletics training.  In the rest of the time I cycled to school every day; played rugby; had 2-3 sessions of martial arts each week; ran round my town once a week; and ate really well!  At 5'7" I would put myself as good as any legionary.

The tests were pretty good mind you - my one real observation is that the mail corselet had sleeves (and a cowl), which Roman armour seemingly didn't.  I believe the sleeves were particularly detrimental to Michael's thowing.

With a shield (and the rest!) and needing to work with the other 59 men of my 'fighting century' around me; especially needing to form a shield-wall before those hairy-arsed types finished their charge (or, at the beginning the hoplite/phalangite advance) - I would suggest that 50-60ft is the maximum - 20paces.  I'd also expect the flight to be shallower and more aimed.

Light infantry (Velites, sic) with a lighter javelin could probably do 100% better.

M2CW

Absolutely agree about shallow throw and aiming.

The whole point of the complicated construction of a pila seems wasteful unless you are using it immediately before stick the enemy with your short sword.

Do these experiments change our modelling of pilum combat in rules?  I suppose it depends on the abstractions in use, particularly if pre-contact misslry is separately handled.

One thing that Todd doesn't discuss is how the techniques used by his tester would fit into a legionary formation, as Mark H refers to above.  A hard one to test perhaps, though maybe mark out the legionary's deployment space and see how it cramped the throwers style would be a first step.  There were only six feet between ranks, according to Vegetius.  How do you make a running throw in that?  Bit more flexibility if the whole formation is moving but still constricting.  Or do you only use running throws in "pilum skirmishing" when you deploy some lads outside the line, who fall back if the enemy shows signs of aggression?  The latter is presumably how velites operate, though not with pila.

Quote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 10:58:39 AMDo these experiments change our modelling of pilum combat in rules?  I suppose it depends on the abstractions in use, particularly if pre-contact misslry is separately handled.

One thing that Todd doesn't discuss is how the techniques used by his tester would fit into a legionary formation, as Mark H refers to above.  A hard one to test perhaps, though maybe mark out the legionary's deployment space and see how it cramped the throwers style would be a first step.  There were only six feet between ranks, according to Vegetius.  How do you make a running throw in that?  Bit more flexibility if the whole formation is moving but still constricting.  Or do you only use running throws in "pilum skirmishing" when you deploy some lads outside the line, who fall back if the enemy shows signs of aggression?  The latter is presumably how velites operate, though not with pila.

I doubt Marian legionaries had the space to do a running throw and probably didn't need it since the initial volley would have been just before charge combat hence at short range, and rear-rank support volleys would have been short range anyway owing to the depth of the legion. Vegetius' 6 feet refers to the legion of his time which was a very different animal, having only one very long line with reserves behind the flanks and rear. Not sure how much space a legionary would need for a standing throw. Maybe 6 feet is the minimum.

Velites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.