Article on Hannibal's route in the Daily Mail of all places!

[Imperial Dave]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3522997/Ancient-horse-dung-helping-track-Hannibal-s-route-Alps-Remains-mountain-pass-left-general-s-army-marched-Italy.html

I'm saying nothing....

[Duncan Head]

See also https://theconversation.com/how-ancient-horse-dung-bacteria-is-helping-our-team-locate-where-hannibal-crossed-the-alps-57135 to which the Mail article refers, and https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/apr/03/where-muck-hannibals-elephants-alps-italy-bill-mahaney-york-university-toronto

One of the commenters on the Guardian piece raises an interesting point:

Evidence for which Carthaginian army one wonders though? I thought Hasdrubal Barca, Hannibal's brother, led a second Carthaginian army a across the Alps a few years after his brother had invaded Italy. I thought Hasdrubal also had war elephants with his force and likely followed a similar route to the one his brother had earlier. Of course, before he could reinforce Hannibal, Hasdrubal and his army came to grief against the Romans at the Battle of the Metaurus in 207 BC..

[Jim Webster]

See also https://theconversation.com/how-ancient-horse-dung-bacteria-is-helping-our-team-locate-where-hannibal-crossed-the-alps-57135 to which the Mail article refers, and https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/apr/03/where-muck-hannibals-elephants-alps-italy-bill-mahaney-york-university-toronto

One of the commenters on the Guardian piece raises an interesting point:

Evidence for which Carthaginian army one wonders though? I thought Hasdrubal Barca, Hannibal's brother, led a second Carthaginian army a across the Alps a few years after his brother had invaded Italy. I thought Hasdrubal also had war elephants with his force and likely followed a similar route to the one his brother had earlier. Of course, before he could reinforce Hannibal, Hasdrubal and his army came to grief against the Romans at the Battle of the Metaurus in 207 BC..

Did the Romans ever use that route sending armies North? And if the place is such an obvious place to halt, generations of muleteers, horse traders and similar will have spotted it as well

Jim

[Duncan Head]

Did the Romans ever use that route sending armies North? And if the place is such an obvious place to halt, generations of muleteers, horse traders and similar will have spotted it as well

True, but the carbon isotope analysis dating to c.200 BC does seem to pin it down a bit.

[Imperial Dave]

thanks for the extra links Duncan

all jokes aside, it is a rather interesting piece of detective work

[Patrick Waterson]

A pity they did not find some elephant dung, as that would have narrowed the field a lot further.

The search, however, continues: from the Conversation website:

The finding is exciting, however we cannot yet be absolutely certain that these bacteria do actually come from horses or humans. The gene analysis needs to be expanded with more genetic sequencing of other genes, if this conclusion is to be certain. I am currently leading an extensive microbiology programme to try and assemble either complete or partial Clostridia genomes from the samples taken at the Traversette mire.

We may also be able to find parasite eggs – associated with gut tapeworms – still preserved in the site like tiny genetic time capsules. With this information, we hope to to shed considerable light on the presence of horses, men – and even Hannibal's famous elephants – at the Traversette mire over 2,000 years ago. This is because with more genetic information we can be more precise about the source and perhaps even the geographical origin of some of these ancient beasts by comparison with other microbiology research studies.

If they get anywhere it could put coprogenic studies on the map.

[Jim Webster]

Did the Romans ever use that route sending armies North? And if the place is such an obvious place to halt, generations of muleteers, horse traders and similar will have spotted it as well

True, but the carbon isotope analysis dating to c.200 BC does seem to pin it down a bit.

mind you, it could have bee the Gauls coming or going from Telamon, or even just Gallic traders

[Dangun]

It seems very odd that no physical evidence of the army has been found, if it really is the path through which a large army passed and perhaps rested for a couple of days.

[Patrick Waterson]

Part of the problem, as Jim points out, is that Hannibal's and Hasdrubal's armies each used (or we assume they used) the route once.  The local Alpine tribes, not to mention Gallic traders and similar itinerants, used the route all the time.  Hence anything usable would have probably found a new owner soon after being abandoned unless it was buried under a rock slide or similar, and I suspect that pulling apart old rock slides does not feature highly on academic soil-samplers' agenda.

[Dangun]

Point taken on large usable stuff...

But we are talking about a layer of excrement between two layers of mud - dare I say it - a s@%t and mud sandwich.

So I was thinking along the lines of stray coins, arrow heads, harness, buckles, rivets, maybe some corpses - human, horse, or elephant.

[Jim Webster]

Point taken on large usable stuff...

But we are talking about a layer of excrement between two layers of mud - dare I say it - a s@%t and mud sandwich.

So I was thinking along the lines of stray coins, arrow heads, harness, buckles, rivets, maybe some corpses - human, horse, or elephant.

I wouldn't expect corpses, (unless it was shallow buried murder victims, perhaps more possible with a bunch of traders than in an army with officers and discipline.) and horses I'd expect butchered horse bones rather than corpses 

But yes, if travellers stop for a couple of days people will check their kit, mend tack and suchlike, and I'd expect leather off-cuts as stuff was mended, rivets, broken buckles and coins.
Arrow heads I'd be less sure off. I think you're less likely to lose an arrow in the camp than you are when out hunting. You tend to lose them when firing them and people get a bit shirty if you do that in camp 

One issue worth considering is when they camp, what would troops lose in a couple of days that wouldn't be lost by generations of traders and suchlike (after all the Gauls crossed the Alps to get into Italy in the first place) ?
In our period armies didn't carry much that travellers wouldn't carry (armour might be the main thing).
I think the important thing would be the coins. If the coins were principally Carthaginian minted in Spain then I think that would be a very strong pointer

( https://www.academia.edu/3455640/The_Coinage_of_Carthage_An_Introduction has some pictures of appropriate coins )

[Dangun]

I wouldn't expect corpses,

This triggered an odd synapse.
If an elephant happened to die - weather, a nasty fall etc, would you butcher it?
Do war elephants make good eating?

[Andreas Johansson]

Elephants have been hunted for their meat (maybe still in bits of Africa). I don't know if its particularly tasty, but I imagine the average soldier of Hannibal's time wasn't terribly choosy.

[Jim Webster]

I would guess that the important factor was just how hungry you all were

[Patrick Waterson]

But we are talking about a layer of excrement between two layers of mud - dare I say it - a s@%t and mud sandwich.

So I was thinking along the lines of stray coins, arrow heads, harness, buckles, rivets, maybe some corpses - human, horse, or elephant.

I suspect the copro-zone would be where the army had its horse lines encamped for the night, so probably not the best place to find any of the above.

The next step for the coproanalysts will presumably be DNA typing to see if the bacteria etc. come from a narrow range of breeds of equine and generally quadrupedal digestive tracts, suggesting an army, or a more eclectic gastrointestinal contribution, signifying travellers of different origins, or at least their mounts.  There is a key identification element which one hopes the team are prioritising: if elephant excreta can be thus indicated, the deposit can be confirmed as being of Barcid origin.